Checklists

[trey kule]

In looking at some accidents/incidents lately, I have noticed that many could have been prevented if the pilots had simply used a checklist. Some are benign like leaving the master switch on, but they indicate that the pilots are not using the checklist.

Whcih all seems a bit odd when it is supposed to be hammered into people during their primary training.
The problem, I see is that the checklists for primary trainers bear little resemblence to reality. In fact, when I read the Cessna POH manual for one type it specfically states to make the checklists aircraft specific and eliminate unneccesary items. Yet FTU's checklists for even the simplist plane seem to be longer and longer.
The problem then becomes a psychological one. As pilots get familiar with a simple aircraft they have everything in memory, and it works well for them, for the most part.
What does happen however is when they move up to a more complicated plane, that has many systems, checks, etc,, and after a bit of familiarity they fall back into the habit of doing everything from memory..
The other thing is the annoying habit some have of saying check on a checklist item without even really looking at the guage, lever, instrument..Just read the item, say check, and move on to the next one.

Airplanes like Navajo's may seem like just bigger trainers, but they have many different procedures, checks etc, and even if you are flying them every day, memory often slips a bit. Checklists become critical in the safe operation of an airplane.

I often here FTU's talk about it being a "liability thing", whatever that means. The simple solution would be to make checklists appropriate for the plane that is being flown, not for some complex type that does not represent the type flown.
And used appropriately. Otherwise student pilots , while putting one on their knee for the flight test, seldom use them...after all, how many student pilots have seen their instructors use a checklist in the 152?


So my question is, how do we get student pilots to understand the importance of using a checklist.

[SuperchargedRS]

Use of checklists is very important. However overly cumbersome checklists are almost as bad as not having a checklist and are a major reason for some people to not use them.

Good study on checklists

http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/profile/adegan ... klists.pdf

[trey kule]

That was a very interesting article. Much more elequently explained then my rabid rantings.

I am curious as to how many FTU's and 702/703 operators spend time goinf over their checklists to see how they conform to the principles outlined in that article.

In places I recall working at, checklist design was really given very little thought, as was the human factor that a new CPL might not understand the importance of it..As a matter of opinion, many pilots really started using checklist only when they got into much much more advanced equipment, and then the bad habits (as noted in the article) were already instilled in them.

Hope some people have some ideas on this.

[photofly]

I have a faint suspicion that the checklist at an FTU of my acquaintance was extra-long because it earned them 0.1 x $$$$ for every 6 minutes the student spent going through the 47 pre-takeoff items (in a 172).

[robertsailor1]

Wifey is learning on a little tail dragger and she went over her check lists with me. Could hardly believe it. Looked like a lawyer had written it. Not wanting to come between her and her instructor I just suggested that it was very comprehensive.
Personally I think it burdens people with additional work loads that are completely unnecessary.

[AEROBAT]

You don't need anything more than what the POH uses for checklist items. FTU's often go way overboard adding extra items, especialy on their single engine trainers. The result is people ignore the checklists after a while.

[straightpilot]

You don't need to use a checklist in a simple little airplane.

Fixed gear. Fixed pitch prop. No cowl flaps. Ridiculously simple fuel system. A quick once-across-the cockpit is all you need. For example, pre-landing:

Carb heat on
Confirm fuel on both (probably already is)
Mixture rich (probably already is).

Why would you need a checklist for something that simple? Do you have a checklist for defecating?

1) Ensure bathroom is unoccupied - check
2) Open bathroom door
3) Enter bathroom - check
4) Close bathroom door
5) Ensure bathroom door locked - check
6) Turn on lights & fan - check
7) Locate toilet
8) Raise toilet lid
9) Ensure toilet seat is lowered
10) Ensure ample supply of toilet paper
11) Turn and face away from toilet
12) Undo belt and pants
13) Lower pants to ground on shoes
14) Sit on toilet
15) Empty bowels
16) Wipe arse with toilet paper
17) Put crap-coated toilet paper in toilet bowl
18) Stand up
19) Pull up pants
20) Fasten pants and belt around waist
21) Flush toilet
22) Wash hands with soap and water
23) Dry hands with paper towel
24) Dispose of paper towel in garbage
25) Unlock and Open door
26) Exit bathroom

The above is a Transport Canada Aviation-approved FTU checklist for taking a dump, which you will notice is considerably more complicated than a downwind check on a single engine light aircraft.

Bottom line is that if you can't remember how do take a dump, you're probably too stupid to fly an airplane.

Should we really be empowering people who are too stupid to sh1t, to fly an airplane?

[AEROBAT]

It is Transport Canada that wants to see them, not me.

[Heliian]

Checklists aren't important until you have; landed on water gear down, landed on runway gear up, opened water bomb doors while scooping, left the flaps up for takeoff, not set the fuel selctor to proper detent, etc. A checklist might be cumbersome but it might save your life one day.

[trey kule]

Really...It is all about TC? As I get older and spend more time at a desk than in a cockpit, it seems I have more time to think about the human factors. The NASA article link that was posted addresses the issue very well.. Also, in the newer POH's they usually specify quite clearly that a checklist should be designed and implemented based on the specific aricraft (not just type) and contain only the necessary and applicable items...

Many years ago we had a harness and hatches, try my finger for size charlie..switches and instruments...the "checklist" was an "aide memoir"..a title taken right from the military check list of years ago. On a simple airplane you only need to look at the checklist after you have completed all the items to make sure you have not missed anything, the checklist itself was not introduced until more complex aircraft required it. The whole challange and response thing was for two crew aircraft. It somehow has morphed.
On a more complex airplane with many more critical systems and checks required, memory , particularily with familiarity, becomes faulty. It is easy to simply miss and item one day, and because it had no consequence, continue to omit it in the future. Kind of like missing a walkaround because you are in a hurray one day...It soom becomes a habit.

My original thoughts were that the use of long and complicated checklists for simple aircraft is actually doing a disservice to pilots, because they quickly stop using them, and their whole importance becomes forgotten. A habit which carries on when they start flying more complex machinery. When I see pilots run a checklist on a pre start that asks..GPS database current...and they push the OK button, and then are asked what was the expiry date on the database..they have no idea because they really did not look. why? because their ftu only flew in VFR so did not keep the database current....
I am not commenting on the wisdom of that, but if you are not going to keep it current, then checking it for currency should not be on the checklist, as it quickly teaches pilots..to respond with..data base current..and push the OK button.
On a more serious issue is ..."flaps set for takeoff", when flaps are not required..Again a small item but it teaches pilots to say "checked" without actually checking, and then one day when they are in a plane that needs flaps to miss the item.
I can not count the times I have heard some smart ass pilot say check...gear down and welded (so it must be more that 5),because it was included on a checklist for a fixed gear aircraft.

Simple plane..simple checklist..

I am not sure that FTU's intentionally are trying to get extra billing time, but who really knows. I think they are just making a well intentioned but critical teaching error in trying to cover absolutly every item in the interest of training, but not really understanding what the student is actually learning about checklist use.

I always ask this question ...how may students have seen their instructors use a checklist in a 172? Or seen a eager young hotshot fire up a navajo with the cowl flaps still closed, or land a plane and taxi in with the flaps still down?
Walk away with the master still on? There is a reason that they are not following checklists..they dont think they are important.

Maybe someone from TC will comment on their policy to make their views on checklists clear.
(I miss TC Guy...as he was such a great resource on this site)

Helian. I agree with you 100%. It is the quality of the check lists on simple aircraft that I am concerned about. learn to ignore them on a 172 and you will learn to ignore them on other aircraft.

[KK7]

I have a possible explanation for why checklists have ballooned to the size of the one they use to start up nuclear reactors despite the simplicity of a basic C150 trainer. During my time as an instructor, I witnessed the schools checklists expand, and admittedly at the time it seemed okay. In hindsight, things got carried away.

It had nothing to do with money or transport, but a little bit with trying to cover every possible situation and appeasing the insurance company to lower rates. Ultimately it comes down to training students properly from the get-go and monitoring their progress properly. It's a repetition of something we see a lot on AvCanada lately - the quality of flight instruction in Canada.

In today's safety environment, we often have a tendency to see a problem, and try to find a way to avoid it in the future. Often this comes down to improved training, but when you see people doing stupid things, the unfortunate quick bandaid solution is to throw it in the checklist so they don't forget next time. Poor instruction and inexperienced instructors throw more fuel on the fire since the checklist becomes a method (albeit inappropriate) way of teaching.

Take the bathroom checklist above for example:

1) Ensure bathroom is unoccupied - check
2) Open bathroom door
3) Enter bathroom - check
4) Close bathroom door
5) Ensure bathroom door locked - check
6) Turn on lights & fan - check
7) Locate toilet
Raise toilet lid
9) Ensure toilet seat is lowered
10) Ensure ample supply of toilet paper
11) Turn and face away from toilet
12) Undo belt and pants
13) Lower pants to ground on shoes
14) Sit on toilet
15) Empty bowels
16) Wipe arse with toilet paper
17) Put crap-coated toilet paper in toilet bowl
18) Stand up
19) Pull up pants
20) Fasten pants and belt around waist
21) Flush toilet
22) Wash hands with soap and water
23) Dry hands with paper towel
24) Dispose of paper towel in garbage
25) Unlock and Open door
26) Exit bathroom

Of course it's ridiculous, since we all go to the bathroom regularly and know this procedure intimately. But imagine you are teaching an alien to go to the bathroom for the first time, really you should spend the time and teach the alien all these steps so that they don't need the checklist. Or you can give them a brief overview, give them the checklist and hope for the best.

I know this is a poor analogy, but I fear that maybe this is why checklists are getting so long. I've been in a C172 where the checklist is a book and includes an emergency procedures section including one for forced approach. The forced approach checklist was a breakdown or summary in point form of all the items contained in the Flight Training manual for that exercise, right down to a checklist item of "select a field". A pilot's not going to pull out the checklist for an engine failure in this type of emergency and say "oh yeah, I would have forgotten to pick a field if this checklist hadn't told me so!" But it must have been easy for someone to hand a student this checklist and say "learn this." No, instead the student should learn what's in the Flight Training Manual, then the instructor and student discuss it in depth on the ground the practice this exercise in the air repeatedly.

Anyways, that's my theory on long checklists. Now I fly a plane that needs a long checklist, but is still shorter than some of the light trainers I used to fly.

[Beefitarian]

I thought it was rediculas because he locked himself in a dark bathroom. If there is any ergancy to the task that could lead to an accident no body wants to happen. Especially if the switch is outside.

[Shiny Side Up]

The relevant CARS:

Checklists

406.34 For the purpose of establishing safe aircraft operating procedures, a flight training unit that operates an aeroplane or a helicopter shall establish and make readily available to each flight crew member on board the aircraft the checklist referred to in Section 602.60 for each aircraft type that it operates.

602.60 (1) No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft, other than an ultra-light aeroplane, unless the following operational and emergency equipment is carried on board:

(a) a checklist or placards that enable the aircraft to be operated in accordance with the limitations specified in the aircraft flight manual, aircraft operating manual, pilot operating handbook or any equivalent document provided by the manufacturer;

Incidentally, TC was directly responsible for our checklists exploding in size (litterally, they even determined the printing was too small on the old ones, so now you can read them as long as you can see lightning) They read the above as though, the checklist must be identical to whatever is in the Aircraft Operating Manual. Either way, for the Cessnas its not too onerus and only really makes sense. They did mandate that we added every possible emergency as the book outlines, so now our checklists (which used to be a single card, red on the flip side for emergency stuff) are a 16 page booklet (remember the large font) with a special section now on stuff like ditching - despite the fact that there are no large bodies of water within the aircraft's range worth noting to ditch in.

Either way, checklists will always be an aid to those who are clever enough to figure them out and a crutch to those who aren't.

[trey kule]

SSU..If you would like, I will send you a copy of a Cessna POH that says exactly the opposite of what you are saying TC is wanting..
Perhaps, if it is as you say,, it is time to forward the copy of to them, and ask them to justify what they are demanding.
I can see nothing in the CARS you quoted that says it has to be identical to the POH, and as mentioned above, I will send you a copy of the pages in a Cessna manual that specifically says it does not.
I know this is hard to believe for some, but just once in a while TC does get things wrong, and unfortunately when they do, it is difficult to get them to collectively admit it, and they go to great lengths to teach the unwashed and illearned masses of the wisdom of their decisions rather than stop and think they might be wrong.. but I would suspect that in the interest of safety, better training, and pilot decision making skills, if you sent them a copy of the linked article, a proper checklist specific to each aircraft type, and a copy of the Cessna POH that they just might see the light.
and I only invoke the "S" word when I really mean it.

[Shiny Side Up]

I can see nothing in the CARS you quoted that says it has to be identical to the POH, and as mentioned above, I will send you a copy of the pages in a Cessna manual that specifically says it does not.

Doesn't matter trey, that's the way they interpreted it, that's the way its going to be. If they interpreted the CARs somehow to demand that the checklist has to be pink, my checklists are going to end up being pink. personally I don't see the checklist issue as you may see it as being high on my list of priorities when it comes to battling with them.

I know this is hard to believe for some, but just once in a while TC does get things wrong, and unfortunately when they do, it is difficult to get them to collectively admit it, and they go to great lengths to teach the unwashed and illearned masses of the wisdom of their decisions rather than stop and think they might be wrong.

Difficult isn't a strong enough word for what you suggest Trey. Maybe you've forgotten what they can do to you if you decide to make issue of something, so in my books that issue had better be worth it. This ain't one of them. Remember I got the same Cessna manuals and have already been round and round. The best example I can give of this sort of action, was after we had made all of our nice new checklist-books, they were back a few days after that to ensure that their job had been well done. It had so happened that one of the students had taken the list out of one plane, accidentally put it back in another plane (being that the fleet are largely identical, a reasonable mistake) a second student had found the list missing in his plane, reasoned that it might have gotten into another plane, found an extra checklist and took it for his plane. Transport arrived, beelined for the airplanes to see if we had implemented their demands, unbeknownst to the students, but knownst to the TC inspector, each checklist is specific to each aircraft (despite otherwise all being identical) and had caught that one aircraft had another aircraft's checklist inside. The sky had fallen. Aircraft all grounded, findings made. Very fun day. Many appologies were made and I think I have several responses filed away to the decisive action we took to remedy this heinous crime. I think we lost half a days work over that one.

Now, would you like me to send them your way so you can argue about checklists? I'm sure you can make them see the light.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

You can beat them if you are willing to have your certificates cancelled and are willing to be blacklisted from finding employment in Canada.

My case was based on their wrong doing and after three years I won my case with an agreed upon settlement of $250,000.00.

To this day I have not received a cent of the money owed to me and the top manager in my region who was found guilty of denying me due process under law is still there doing what he does best...screwing the industry.

As I advise over and over.

When you see any TCCA inspector approaching you you are in more danger than if it is a common street criminal.

Me I will refuse to communicate with them on any level including a ramp check asking for the required documents.....I am willing to go to jail first.

[Shiny Side Up]

You can beat them if you are willing to have your certificates cancelled and are willing to be blacklisted from finding employment in Canada.

Indeed. Quibbling over checklists simply isn't worth the trouble. That's only really explained why checklists have gotten longer though, I should veer back to the original topic.

In looking at some accidents/incidents lately, I have noticed that many could have been prevented if the pilots had simply used a checklist. Some are benign like leaving the master switch on, but they indicate that the pilots are not using the checklist.

Not necessarily. Notoriously, people are bad at using checklists. Part of that has to do with making them longer, but a good part of it has to do with the fact that our citizenry are getting more and more illiterate. Society is producing people who are very poor readers. A good majority of students I notice have problems even reading the text of the checklist. Notably as well there are a lot of people who fudge through vision tests and really should be wearing glasses - part of the problem. You'd be suprised at how many people I catch, even worse are the ones you have to berate for not bringing their glasses despite the rider on their medicals - GLASSES MUST BE WORN. Beyond physical vision problems, many also cannot keep their place while reading without some sort of assistance in placeholding, you will often see people miss items if they need their hands for something and can't keep a finger on their checklist spot. This I suspect has prompted the increases length in many cases where you have double and triple redundant checks especially of critical items like the mags.
Lastly you also have a lot of people with poor understanding of the mechanical items that the checklist is supposed to aid them in checking. If I had my way with the world before anyone ever laid eyes on a checklist they would have went through a test of mechanical aptitude first - but we all know the realities of flight training - pilots don't always come from the ranks of the mechanically apt. In my experience the best pilots always have had a deep mechanical knowledge, as such a checklist holds no mysteries for them. That being said I've had to take people from zero level to being pilots, and in that relatively short time
its never enough for them usually to get beyond the rote knowledge stage of using the belaboured checklist.

Which all seems a bit odd when it is supposed to be hammered into people during their primary training.

The problem being as above, the hammering doesn't do much good if they don't already have a solid base to hammer it into. What must be recognized is that ingeneral, people are poor at following written directions, and worse at it if they have less prior experience. Personally I'm suprised that checklists haven't taken the form of those pictograms like the emergency escape plans you find in the seatbacks on airliners.

The problem, I see is that the checklists for primary trainers bear little resemblence to reality. In fact, when I read the Cessna POH manual for one type it specfically states to make the checklists aircraft specific and eliminate unneccesary items. Yet FTU's checklists for even the simplest plane seem to be longer and longer.

You're missing the fact that what someone deems as "unnecessary" is a matter of opinion. For example I deemed that to make the checklist easier to handle and find critical items on it, to eliminate emergency sections like how to ditch the aircraft - someone else had a different opinion, and now I have a ditching checklist in my airplanes. Like I said, not worth the trouble of fighting over.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Ah I see the immortal checklist rant thread is back

My 02 cents re FTU's and checklists

1) The checklist is a safety of flight tool, it should not be an instructional document. SOP's should be how we teach students how do do something; not adding it to a checklist. The test for the checklist items is simple. Will not doing something potentially cause a imminent or near imminent hazard to you or some other plane. If the answer is yes then it should be on the checklist if the answer is no then it should not be on the checklist. . For your average single engine fixed gear Cessna/Piper this makes the list pretty short. For example my 172 checklist has only 4 items for the prelanding check.

a) Fuel................Both and quantity checked
b) Mixture rich......Rich
c) Carb heat........As Required
d) Brakes.............Checked

They should also reflect malfunctions/mistakes that are reasonably likely. I never do the "run on the left tank", "run on the right tank" drill that seems to be pretty common in C 172 FTU checklists unless the aircraft just came out of major maintainance. I have never heard of a otherwise normal on the line C 172 suddenly stop feeding from one tank and while theoretically possible the malfunction is of such low possibility and discoverable in other ways, that it just distracts students from higher priority tasks.



2) There are 2 kinds of checklists "do lists" where you read each item and then do it before moving on to the next item, and "checklists" where you do all the items on a particular check and then review the checklist to make sure you have not forgotten anything. My checklist is arranged so that checks where the aircraft is not moving are or is in cruise flight are done as a "do list" and all the others are done as a "checklist".

3) Checklists work much better if they are constructed as flows. So for example all my Cessna checks "normal and emergency" for every phase of flight start at the fuel selector and flow in counter clockwise circle around the instrument panel. One of the big advantages of this is it builds muscle memory and so when the pressure is on the student is much less likely to make a mistake.

[straightpilot]

It is the quality of the check lists on simple aircraft that I am concerned about

Simple aircraft don't NEED checklists. Someone that will only ever fly fixed-gear light aircraft need never use a checklist - all they need to do is memorize a simple pre-takeoff check, and a simple pre-landing check, which I suppose could be on a placard to comply with CAR 602.60. Not every private pilot goes on to fly crowd-killers, and I don't know why everyone pretends they do. So why make them use crowd-killer checklists?

TK: You're coy about it, but I understand you are a sim instructor. Checklists are your life. You think that with a good enough checklist, you can take any monkey that walks through the door and get them a type rating, and that's frightening.

There are some people who are just too dumb to fly an airplane. Why does no one ever come out and say that? No matter how good the checklist is, a dummy will always figure out a way to screw something up in an airplane.

There are some problems that you can't solve with more paper.

[SuperchargedRS]

It is the quality of the check lists on simple aircraft that I am concerned about

Simple aircraft don't NEED checklists. Someone that will only ever fly fixed-gear light aircraft need never use a checklist - all they need to do is memorize a simple pre-takeoff check

And I also dont need any charts or plates, I simply can memorize them too!

Thing is people f' up and forget things now and then, ever forget your keys??



You should read that NASA study I posted, I believe it was written with the blood on quite a few people

I hate the 747 style checklists for small SE aircraft, however I TOTALLY AM FOR CHECKLISTS, if for anything to make sure you dont forget anything on your preflight, because we all get distracted, we all forget things and that checklist can save your ass, be it in a 4 engine jet, or a little J3.

For my light single engine plane I have a double sided 3x5 card with a nice thick lamination on it, works great and doesn't take but a second to go through it.

[straightpilot]

For my light single engine plane I have a double sided 3x5 card

What would you do if it blew out the open window of your Cub? Declare a Mayday?

I say again, light aircraft don't need a checklist - a short placard on the dashboard meets the legal requirement.

Anyone too dense to memorize the simple pre-landing check for a light aircraft is not bright enough to be in control of any motorized equipment, let alone one with wings.

Why does everyone think that any monkey with a checklist can fly an airplane?

[SuperchargedRS]

For my light single engine plane I have a double sided 3x5 card

What would you do if it blew out the open window of your Cub? Declare a Mayday?

I say again, light aircraft don't need a checklist - a short placard on the dashboard meets the legal requirement.

Anyone too dense to memorize the simple pre-landing check for a light aircraft is not bright enough to be in control of any motorized equipment, let alone one with wings.

Why does everyone think that any monkey with a checklist can fly an airplane?

Who is the dense one lol

When did I say flying a plane without a checklist is impossible?????

A placard would work, but with my nice painted and saddle leather interior a big checklist placard does not mesh well, also I like to have a checklist in my hand during a walkaround, I dont need it, but I like to keep my thumb on what I am doing incase one of those hangar bum types wants to strike up a conversation while I am doing a walkaround.

Who said all you need to fly is a checklist???? that's BS

And for your "anyone to dense to memorize a simple....."

ANSWER MY QUESTION : HAVE YOU EVER FORGOTTEN YOUR KEYS????????????????????????????????????????????? EVER????????????

if you have (which is an almost certianity) guess you are too dense to operate a simple car eh?
luckily in a car you can always pull over, or go look for your keys


Look, you dont NEED a checklist to fly, you also dont need full oil to fly, you also dont need very good weather to fly, or even good equipment!
However given the CHOICE, I like to have full oil, good equipment, ok wx AND A CHECKLIST, see I like me (I'm my biggest fan) and the more simple things I can do to make sure I am alive and happy the better.

[AEROBAT]

c) Carb heat........As Required

I sure agree on the "carb heat...as required". Too many people use carb heat when it is detrimental to the engine.

[straightpilot]

Too many people use carb heat when it is detrimental to the engine

I have to ask, how is carb heat "detrimental to the engine" during the reduced-power descent during base and final? What permanent damage does it cause to the engine internals?

I can see carb heat while taxiing being a bad idea if there's lots of junk lying around, because it bypasses the engine filter.

And carb heat on takeoff reduces power, so that's not good, but hardly "detrimental to the engine". I've never heard of an engine detonating on takeoff due to carb heat - not likely with 100LL - in fact I know of some aircraft types with the little Continentals that recommend the use of carb heat on takeoff!

BTW, never locked my keys in the car, if that's what you're getting at.

Lots of religion here.

like to have full oil

Ok, but you're going to be down on horsepower due to crankcase windage, and it's just going to be tossed overboard and grease up the belly until it gets down to the windage level.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

What would you do if it blew out the open window of your Cub? Declare a Mayday?

Funny you should mention this.

A couple of weeks ago we had landed on the water at a lodge we were looking at to buy.

After we came off the step I opened the upper door on the Husky and zip....out the door went our map the other guy in the back was holding in his hand.....so I turned around and headed back to get the map out of the water, I shut down the engine and climbed out on the float and I'll be damned if my expensive cushion didn't fall in the water as it was stuck to my back.

It only took a few minutes of paddling around to retrieve both the map and the cushion but it must have looked like a gong show had anyone been there to see it.

By the way the map was just fine after drying out on the dock for a couple of hours...in fact salt water seems to have made it more durable.