PPC Troubles!

[Jellyman]

No need to make anyone feel like shit who might have had this happen to them. But I really want to know if failing a PPC ride is a death sentace in aviation. Is it posible to get another job and give full disclosure or should you keep every possible new employer in the dark?

I have always been told honesty is the best policy, but should this information be kept private to the grave or what? No smart ass comments....looking for real advice here, don't be a douch!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Your question is very general as you have not given any details on what you were doing a PPC on and why you failed.

Anyone can fail any test, seldom is a failure on its own significant enough to harm your career as long as you can show a history of being a competent pilot.

Sometimes failures on rides are more political than anything else.

[Rockie]

No need to make anyone feel like shit who might have had this happen to them. But I really want to know if failing a PPC ride is a death sentace in aviation. Is it posible to get another job and give full disclosure or should you keep every possible new employer in the dark?

I have always been told honesty is the best policy, but should this information be kept private to the grave or what? No smart ass comments....looking for real advice here, don't be a douch!

Let me put it this way, if failing a ppc was fatal there would be a lot fewer professional pilots around. As . says failures occur for many reasons some of which aren't the pilot's fault. Plus anybody can have a bad day.

Full disclosure is always the best policy as well. It won't hurt you, but lying will.

[200Above]

Although I have never failed a PPC ride, I have been close. We all have our bad days. What I feel is important is what you learn from your mistakes. Whenever I fly now (everyday flying) I think back to what I learned.

Failing a ride is not a big deal. I have seen many good pilots make mistakes under the stress and pressure of being watched like a hawk. What is more troubling is individuals not admitting to their mistake and learning from it.

After every ride I recap and say to myself "i wont make that mistake" or "next time i need to do this to make my life easier".

That's me anyways.

[slowstream]

No need to make anyone feel like shit who might have had this happen to them. But I really want to know if failing a PPC ride is a death sentace in aviation. Is it posible to get another job and give full disclosure or should you keep every possible new employer in the dark?

I have always been told honesty is the best policy, but should this information be kept private to the grave or what? No smart ass comments....looking for real advice here, don't be a douch!

Let me put it this way, if failing a ppc was fatal there would be a lot fewer professional pilots around. As . says failures occur for many reasons some of which aren't the pilot's fault. Plus anybody can have a bad day.

Full disclosure is always the best policy as well. It won't hurt you, but lying will.

I'm on side with Rockie!

I failed one this year, my first in 20 years, I was always told that sooner or later nearly everyone will fail a ride. It was a rather large humble-pie pill to swallow but I learned from it, passed it on the second go around so all is good and I am wiser.

Again I am in agreement with Rockie, I think honesty is the best policy always!

BTW I've known first hand a good amount of people who have failed rides before, so try not to sweat it, trust me I know easier said than done, but honestly when you pass your next one it will only be a memory and hopefully something you learned from.

[Rockie]

Here's a tip. Take notes during the debrief, afterwards type them up filling in the gaps so that they make sense later, then put them in a binder and review them all before every sim session or line check. Such a simple thing that does wonders for avoiding the same mistakes, but few people actually do it.

Pretty soon you'll be debriefing yourself and have most of the notes written before the trainer\CCP even starts talking.

[The Old Fogducker]

Jellyman .... Flunking a ride is generally more a measure of how well your company's training program syllabus and training pilots prepared you for the ride before recommending you ... (and preparing you for the real world work that follows the ride.) That's not to say that if you suddenly went brain dead, or decided this was the time to invent some new procedure other than that in which you were trained in response to a clearance or emergency drill, that you shouldn't be rightfully assessed as not meeting the required standard.

So if I were interviewing you and asked if you'd ever been given the news that you failed a ride, and you weren't forthcoming with the reasons why, and what you had learned from the experience, it would certainly go against you.

Unfortunately, poor training in preparation for the PPC in 703 and many 704 operations is very common. Few companies have an actual "training program" and mistakenly believe the training tracking form in the COM is the syllabus for a "program" and that much of that material is optional once the magic COM matrix minimum number of hours is met .... if it says 4 hours minimum, that's when training ceases regardless of what the list of required excersizes and items in the CASS states. At that 4 hours, the dice are tossed and if they come up snake eyes for you, well ... the operator is only too willing to tell you that its all your fault for flunking.

The Old Fogducker

[Rudy]

Death sentence? No. I know of people who have failed multiple PPC rides and are now at Air Canada.

[rigpiggy]

Blew a ride due to relative infamiliarity with a misadjusted drum altimeter. extra hour ride next day, no problems. When asked be up front, if they don't ask, don't offer

[parrot_head]

I'll second what the Old Fogducker said. A PPC is a 1-2 hour snapshot, under stress, of your flying skills, knowledge and company training. Overall I believe it is a fairly inaccurate process as it is really hard to get an accurate assessment of the overall picture in just a few hours.

I believe that any company that would fail to hire anyone based on a previous PPC failure isn't worth working for anyways. But like the old guy said, admit the failure, and tell them what you learned from it.

[True North]

I did a lot of hiring throughout my career and not once did I ask if the candidate had ever failed a PPC. I called references and previous employers prior to the interview so I had a pretty good idea of the candidate's potential before the interview. If I found out someone lied to me during the interview, and if I found out before I hired them I would not hire them for any reason. If I found out after I had hired them I would forever look at that individual with suspicion. As already stated, anyone can fail a PPC. Admit it but DO NOT blame it on poor training, even if you really believe it to be true. That sounds like an excuse and in my experience is seldom true. In all the PPCs I conducted over the years the only people who ever failed were the one's who showed up unprepared.

[co-joe]

I had a ride I should have failed but didn't. In retrospect I really wish I had failed. It would have highlighted the absolute shit training I received.

I blew through my first assigned altitude by over 500' because I thought the otto pilot was engaged. In fact I had absolutely no idea how to use the otto flight system at all, no idea how to use the FMS, and no idea how to use EFIS. Plus I did the ride from the left seat despite all 6.5 hours of my training being done from the right seat, over the preceding 3 months with 3 different training pilots and self study groundschool. The only reason I passed is that the only other guy who could fly with the other line captain was starting his 2 week vacation the next day so if I had failed he would have either lost his vacation or the plane would have been grounded.

I never complained because "good guys" just do what they're told and the company rewards them in the long run. Right? My reward was a 30 on 3 off schedule with FO pay.

Lesson here is that failing a PPC is not always a bad thing. I learned a shit tonne that year and the following year went to simuflite for the best groundschool and training money can buy. In sim I rode PNF for a guy's part 135 check ride and rocked the heck out of my PPC when I got back north of the 49th.

[stopsquawk]

There are many of us out there who have failed a PPC in the past and are still working, and many are being hired by the majors. Be up front and honest about the failure, and what you learned from it. If the company interviewing you won't hire you because of the failure, you probably don't want to be working for them after all.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

When did the PPC requirement first start?

In the bad old days before aviation became so safe and the skills levels for pilots became so rigid we never had to do PPC's.

The chief pilots just interviewed us and then flew with us and if we met the company standard we were hired.

[Doc]

Just one more reason to dump the stupidity that is the PPC! Come one people. A pilot has been flying every day for a year, and suddenly he can't fly? What an absolute crock of shit! Personally I HATE rides of any kind. What's with the annual "test" of someone's ability to do what they do every day of the year? What's the thought process in place here? If I go over a year without being "tested" I'm more likely to kill all my passengers? I'm 100% in favour of annual training. I'm 0% in favour of the added stress brought about by "testing" our abilities. On a side note.....I absolutely SUCK at rides/tests of any sort....and I've brought more airplanes home on one engine than ANY of you!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Doc, did you ever fly with Jim Bell the chief pilot at Austin Airways back in the sixties?

I'll never forget the day two of us took our captain rides with him on the DC3, I did mine first then got in the jump seat and he did the other guy....the ride did not last long because Jim pulled the mixture on the right engine just after lift off and the mixture control lever broke off in the I.C.O. position......the pilot taking the ride feathered the engine and did a short circuit and we had to get the airplane towed back to the ramp....he also passed his ride.

[KAG]

The only time I was asked was during the Air Canada and Westjet interviews.
They can if they want to find out your record with transport so be honest. And as most on here can attest, there are those that have and those that will. Hell I have an at fault accident that didn't slow my career down so don't worry. The most important thing is to learn from the experience and don't repeat it.

[Rockie]

Just one more reason to dump the stupidity that is the PPC!

Four days of training a year are twice as valuable as two days of training and two days of check rides that don't prove anything.

[Beefitarian]

I'll type this out even if no one understands what it says.

The reason the PPC is needed is to baby sit the employers. Like had been mentioned it makes sure the pilot is being trained to standards. If there were no rides to check up on it, there would be many companies that would not spend the time or money to train their staff based on the same reasoning cited, "The pilot has been flying all year. We don't need to teach them anything.

Employer, "Here sign this." Pilot, "What is it?" employer, "It's proof you did a course last week." Pilot, "What? I didn't do a course last week." employer, "Just sign it." Pilot, "Ok."

[Rockie]

The reason the PPC is needed is to baby sit the employers.

That would mean more if Transport Canada didn't get out of the PPC business. In the airline world standards are maintained 100% inhouse by company CCP's.

[Beefitarian]

The reason the PPC is needed is to baby sit the employers.

That would mean more if Transport Canada didn't get out of the PPC business. In the airline world standards are maintained 100% inhouse by company CCP's.

This supports what I'm saying even though you are correct that there are oportunities for abuse there. The airlines make much more money and can afford to maintain a higher standard of training. They also operate larger equipment that has a more obvious need for certain skills. Finally they fear public opinion more than Transport and wish to maintain a higher standard than is regulated.

If you fail a ride at Air Canada and the reason seems to be rooted in a need for more training you're going to get more training. They have more invested in you as a member of a flight crew.

You fail a ride at a place with three pilots total, next week one of them might be a new guy that just passed his ride at a competitor's operation because they have better training. That's part of the reason the places with decent training feel the need for bonds. Some outfits might spend an extra $2/hour on wages because they're saving $5/hour on not bothering to train their pilots. "Here's your homework binder. Better study up for that PPC next week."

[Rockie]

The airlines make much more money and can afford to maintain a higher standard of training. They also operate larger equipment that has a more obvious need for certain skills. Finally they fear public opinion more than Transport and wish to maintain a higher standard than is regulated.

If only that were the case.

Transport Canada prescribes the minimum training that is required and that's what airlines provide. Nothing more. In fact in some cases the training satisfies the letter of the requirement but certainly not the intent.

When an airline says their crews meet or exceed standards, what they really mean is they meet it.

[Beefitarian]

I believe you if you feel like there should be more training, it's rarely enough, but I promise you any airline will be much more willing to work with a pilot that has been there for over three years than most other employers.

[Beefitarian]

For clarity I agree 100% with this.

It would mean more if Transport Canada didn't get out of the PPC business.

[ea306]

Sometimes I think the whole PPC process is a bit backwards. Especially for recurrent training. I think if the PPC check ride was done first to identify areas requiring corrective training followed by a training to meet or exceed standard might be a more effective way of meeting the objective of achieving pilot proficiency.

Would it not be better to know how you will perform in an actual emergency situation without a dress rehearsal? That is how it will happen in real life.....


Anyway, back to the topic of the thread. Failing a check ride in itself should not be career limiting.


Relax and enjoy the learning experience!

David