Propwash Rant

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Big Pistons Forever
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Propwash Rant

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

I am getting pretty discouraged by the number of times I have seen training aircraft with instructors onboard who allow the student to manoever the aircraft without considering where the prop wash is going.

The latest and most egregious example was a few days ago. I was teaching a lesson on a Nanchang CJ6 and was stopped at the runup bay. This square paved bay extends past the end of the taxiway turnoff to the button of the runway. Another CJ6 was at the opening of the bay canted at 45 degs so its tail was away from the runway and over the grass. We pulled up parallel beside him further into the bay but had to wait for temps. By this time the other CJ6 had completed his runup and mover to the runway hold short line. About a minute later a Cessna showed up. The airplane taxied directly at me and then made a hard turn swinging his tail by me and adding a lot of power to tighten the turn. He came to a stop exactly 90 degrees to me with his tail pointed directly at me and his tail only about 10 feet from my right wing tip. He then proceeded to do a runup :shock:. Not only was my airplane shaking from the prop wash but we recieved at least two hits from flying gravel before we were able to pull ahead and get out of the wash. I ascertained later that there was an instructor in the right seat and the student was driving. To say I was extremely disappointed that the instructor did not correct such an obvious example of bad airmanship; is a considerable understatement :evil: .

There is simply no excuse for this all too common problem. Managing your prop wash so as to insure it is not hazarding people/places/other airplanes is Airmanship 101 and should be introduced on LP 1. Students are not born with good airmanship it has to be taught and it is imperative that instructors:

1) Never by their own actions demonstrate poor airmanship, and

2) Always correct poor airmanship practices by their students.

Finally I think that an FTU fixation that runups can only be done if the aircraft is aligned precisely into the wind, may have contributed to what happened to me. The wind on the day in question was about 5 knots. The reality is that the direction of the aircraft for the runup Does Not Matter. A runup conducted Up wind Downwind , Crosswind etc will have no effect on the aircraft. When the wind gets up a bit higher it is desirable to do the runup approximately into the wind. I tell my students "approximately" means the aircraft is aligned within about 45 degrees of the prevailing wind. This helps engine cooling and makes the runup RPM indications steadier. But the bottom line is the aircrafts tail can NEVER be pointed at another aircraft
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Post by Beefitarian »

Um, I could be wrong and that would be no surprise but I'm reasonably sure the run up check list includes, "clear behind" further I would suggest that should indicate not doing a run up with another aircraft behind you.
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Finally I think that an FTU fixation that runups can only be done if the aircraft is aligned precisely into the wind,
Not to defend the unthinking action of blasting another aircraft, but I also have run into a TC Inspector who had a fixation with doing run ups into the wind. His opinion was that the need to do it into wind was the paramount consideration. Mind you he also disapproved of teaching slips to students as well, so there you go.
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Re:

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Beefitarian wrote:Um, I could be wrong and that would be no surprise but I'm reasonably sure the run up check list includes, "clear behind" further I would suggest that should indicate not doing a run up with another aircraft behind you.
Putting "clear behind" in a checklist is a perfect example of what is wrong in flight training. You have to be aware of your prop wash at all times , not just when doing a runup ! The solution isn't yet another entry into an already stupidly long FTU checklist, it is for instructors to demonstrate good airmanship themselves and to use the ordinary course of a flight to explain what are good practices and what are not....or in other words to Instruct the student and in the context of this example to have the student automatically think about where their tail is pointed. If they need a checklist to remind themselves not to blast another airplane than they have failed as pilots.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Certainly. I was just suggesting that even by the lowest possible standards there was a problem.
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by Shiny Side Up »

You have to be aware of your prop wash at all times , not just when doing a runup !
While I feel your pain, there is also the probability that the pilot did know where his prop wash was and just simply didn't care. Airmanship unfortunately is one of those nebulous things that by the time someone gets into pilot training, whether they will practice good airmanship or not has already been determined. Not to say that we can't keep attempting to correct them, but in many cases the problem will be incorrigible. Airmanship at it heart really revolves around how consientious of a person you are regarding your fellow persons around you. Your rant really could have been about any subject regarding airmanship (and also I realise it feels good to come here and blow off steam with a lot of typing! ) and really on any such subject you'd largely be preaching to the choir. No one after all is going to come on here and give you some reason why they blast other airplanes.
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Shiny Side Up wrote:
You have to be aware of your prop wash at all times , not just when doing a runup !
While I feel your pain, there is also the probability that the pilot did know where his prop wash was and just simply didn't care. Airmanship unfortunately is one of those nebulous things that by the time someone gets into pilot training, whether they will practice good airmanship or not has already been determined. Not to say that we can't keep attempting to correct them, but in many cases the problem will be incorrigible. Airmanship at it heart really revolves around how consientious of a person you are regarding your fellow persons around you. Your rant really could have been about any subject regarding airmanship (and also I realise it feels good to come here and blow off steam with a lot of typing! ) and really on any such subject you'd largely be preaching to the choir. No one after all is going to come on here and give you some reason why they blast other airplanes.
Thanks for sharing my pain. :lol:

Frankly If I was the CFI and I saw an airplane with an instructor do that he/she would be subject to an all "Transmit" on my part and all "Receive" on their part, conversation; and a letter on their employment file. Another instance of such blatant disregard for good operating practices with a student on board and they would be fired. Anyone so obviously lazy or clueless has no business teaching students and should be forced from the industry before they ruin more students. There are plenty of smart motivated people out there to replace them.
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by trey kule »

Just a thought, but did you give the CFI of the FTU a call or send him a note? I have found in the last few years that one of my best friends for these type of incidents in the camera on my cell phone...Clears up a huge amount of the confusion as to who was where etc.
Also, did you transmit on the radio the problem when it was happening...something simple like "we are suffering rock damage from your propwash,,...move now"...Nothing like having a nice record of the problem, if there is an FSS or tower on the frequency.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

trey kule wrote:Just a thought, but did you give the CFI of the FTU a call or send him a note? I have found in the last few years that one of my best friends for these type of incidents in the camera on my cell phone...Clears up a huge amount of the confusion as to who was where etc.
Also, did you transmit on the radio the problem when it was happening...something simple like "we are suffering rock damage from your propwash,,...move now"...Nothing like having a nice record of the problem, if there is an FSS or tower on the frequency.

I talked to the instructor personally, although I was less than satisfied with his response, he eventually acknowledged he should have told the student to move the aircraft. I have not had a chance to talk to the CFI yet. I did not bother to make a radio call because the frequency was busy and by the time I could have called we had moved out of the wash and he was powering down.
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Frankly If I was the CFI and I saw an airplane with an instructor do that he/she would be subject to an all "Transmit" on my part and all "Receive" on their part, conversation; and a letter on their employment file. Another instance of such blatant disregard for good operating practices with a student on board and they would be fired. Anyone so obviously lazy or clueless has no business teaching students and should be forced from the industry before they ruin more students. There are plenty of smart motivated people out there to replace them.
Incidentally, its a bit more difficult to fire someone for such a thing than you suggest. Either way, I do agree with the sentiment. Whether its laziness, cluelessness or just plain assholishness (unfortunately I've run into these pilots before too) it would be nice if we could run them off. I wouldn't assume that this behavior is taught by an instructor though as in most cases it isn't. I know of plenty of students who've not taken on their instructor's bad airmanship traits, and I know of plenty of new pilots who have developed their own playbook of prickish moves quite independently.
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by cgzro »

I've had this problem on many occasions. I am accutely aware of other aicraft propwash and thrown up fod because my plane is so small and fabric. I've seen many many examples of this kind of behavior.

The worst I ever saw was a beaver taxi up to the big shared hanger he was based in .. spin the plane around so the tail was pointing into the hanger and then do a run up, do his live mag check and mixture cut off at a pretty decent RPM. Filled the frenshly cleaned hanger with crap, when told this was incredibly poor form got angry with us for being 'difficult'.

Sigh ..
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by iflyforpie »

Being aware of one's propwash and how it affects other aircraft should be instinctive to any licensed pilot and drilled in to any pilot learning from day one. Whenever I operate any piece of machinery, it is with consideration to how it affects my surrounding environment. This goes for two stroke engines near populous areas; boat wakes by beaches, docks, canoes, and kayaks; dust and rocks when driving on dirt or gravel(ed) roads.

But seeing lots of other people who don't care about any of the above makes for no surprise that people either don't know, or don't care about propwash.

The students I can cut a bit of a break to. There are a lot of things to think about when flying a plane and invariably propwash gets left behind (pardon the pun). But it is on the pre-runup checklist of every plane I've ever flown, so it should come into consideration at least for that portion of the operation.

But the worst offenders I have found are often the 'best' pilots. Taildragger pilots showing the world that they can turn on a dime. Amphib pilots doing the same. Turbo prop pilots trying to look cool by backing up their aircraft. Twin pilots instead of carrying momentum to help them turn, powering up one side to spin around.

Since these are all turning maneuvers or moving the aircraft towards a clear area, invariably something is going to get blasted.


But there is hope for the world. I was working in the hangar when a PC-12 came in. I like to work with the door open in the summer, and I will close it if I hear something heavy come in because we have a small ramp; but I guess the compressor was going because I didn't hear him. We have a large one-piece hydraulic door that takes a good two minutes to close, so there was nothing I could do but wait and hope.

He taxied in, put the coals to her and started to turn, then cut the engine as the planes tail swung my way under momentum. I didn't even smell jet exhaust. I actually went out and complemented them on their exceptional airmanship.
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by Conic Projection »

Why is a Nanchang 45degrees diagonally in a square run up bay? seems like it would take up more room, especially if wind doesn't matter during run up.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Your question seems fair but why didn't you just ask him on the radio instead of trying to blow him over with your cessna?
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by iflyforpie »

Conic Projection wrote:Why is a Nanchang 45degrees diagonally in a square run up bay? seems like it would take up more room, especially if wind doesn't matter during run up.
No, 45 degrees actually takes up less room. I don't know how many times I've disconnected main gear scissor links or put planes on castored wheel dollies so we could roll them in at 45 degrees into a too-small hangar. :D Also, you can overlap the wingspans because the guy in front will move out before you are done provided he isn't 767.
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

iflyforpie wrote:
Conic Projection wrote:Why is a Nanchang 45degrees diagonally in a square run up bay? seems like it would take up more room, especially if wind doesn't matter during run up.
No, 45 degrees actually takes up less room. I don't know how many times I've disconnected main gear scissor links or put planes on castored wheel dollies so we could roll them in at 45 degrees into a too-small hangar. :D Also, you can overlap the wingspans because the guy in front will move out before you are done provided he isn't 767.
It also allows a third aircraft to go on the other side of me (ie deeper into the runup bay) without any danger of being effected by my prop wash, which is exactly what a Cessna (student no instructor onboard) did just before the blast-o-matic Cessna which was the subject of my rant. Ironically the aircraft with the just the student onboard did everything right. He slowed right down before crossing in front of me and made a wide turn so he did not have to gronch the aircraft around with a big blast of power and inside brake and he kept his tail away from me the whole time.
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Shiny Side Up wrote:
Frankly If I was the CFI and I saw an airplane with an instructor do that he/she would be subject to an all "Transmit" on my part and all "Receive" on their part, conversation; and a letter on their employment file. Another instance of such blatant disregard for good operating practices with a student on board and they would be fired. Anyone so obviously lazy or clueless has no business teaching students and should be forced from the industry before they ruin more students. There are plenty of smart motivated people out there to replace them.
Incidentally, its a bit more difficult to fire someone for such a thing than you suggest. Either way, I do agree with the sentiment. Whether its laziness, cluelessness or just plain assholishness (unfortunately I've run into these pilots before too) it would be nice if we could run them off. I wouldn't assume that this behavior is taught by an instructor though as in most cases it isn't. I know of plenty of students who've not taken on their instructor's bad airmanship traits, and I know of plenty of new pilots who have developed their own playbook of prickish moves quite independently.
In this case the Instructor was PIC. The buck stops at the right hand seat..........
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
In this case the Instructor was PIC. The buck stops at the right hand seat..........
True, the comment was only meant to outline that there is still hope for the stuent, even if they are subjected to a bad instructor. You might not have made an impression on the instructor - and are very unlikely, no matter what meathod you used, to gave him that moment of clarity which might have him change his ways - but you did have a chance to affect the student's train of thought on the matter.
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by JMACK »

While that Cessna PIC probably needs a tune up! What is more important is what an awesome ride you were in!

Image

Where do you operate that and how can I get a ride in one???

Cheers....Jim
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Well smack me up side the head because nobody told me that Thursdays are an "airmanship optional" day for flight instructors :oops:. That I guess, is the only reason for yet another lesson in bad airmanship from 2 different aircraft with students and instructors on board I observed today.

I was in the same runup bay that I described in my opening rant, only this time I was the first there so my student parked angled out in the near corner of the bay. While we were waiting for temps a light twin exclusively used for flight instruction arrived. I thought he was going to pull up beside me which would have left room for 2 more aircraft. But how silly of me to expect such consideration, instead he parked right in the middle effectively using up three airplane worths of spaces. About a minute later a C 172 shows up. He stops at the entrance to the runup bay in what I assume was the expectation that the twin would move. After a significant wait and no sign of the twin moving the C 172 decided to try to fit into the corner anyway. After squeezing in front of the twin they were then stuck having to execute a 180 deg turn within the shadow of their own aircraft. This was accomplished by locking the inside tire and graunching the aircraft around with big blasts of power.

Come On Guys/Gals. This is not rocket science, if the student parks in an bad spot Make him/her move the airplane. If someone is hogging all the space wait for an opening that doesn't require abusing the aircraft to make it fit.

Yes like Shiny said after the student finishes the course, you can't control them if they choose to revert to being a jerk. But when the instructor is in the airplane there is no excuse for egregious examples of bad airmanship. You are supposed to be setting the good example
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by Old Dog Flying »

This subject has been my biggest bitch for many years and it get worse as time goes on. The old "Dumbing Down" of the instructor population is here to stay folks. On Tuesday I was waiting to get into the pumps at Langley with a C152 being refueled by an off-shore student. He placed the fuel nozzle on the ground twice before finishing then pulled the Spam-can ahead just enough to allow me into the pumps.

I started to pump gas into the right tank with the tail of the C152 pointed at me. The student had gone into the school, then returned with another of his buddies and were getting into the aircraft when I told them to move the thing to avoid blowing shit on my aircraft. They did...pulled it ahead 20 feet or so and started up and sat there !!!!

I've talked to the owner of the school a couple of times, given a blonde female instructor from the school who had a lot of Attitude, a word or two..all without success.

Maybe we should start posting names of schools and individuals who participate in bad airmanship practices.

Barney C-GFXH
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by winds_in_flight_wtf »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:I am getting pretty discouraged by the number of times I have seen training aircraft with instructors onboard who allow the student to manoever the aircraft without considering where the prop wash is going.

The latest and most egregious example was a few days ago. I was teaching a lesson on a Nanchang CJ6 and was stopped at the runup bay. This square paved bay extends past the end of the taxiway turnoff to the button of the runway. Another CJ6 was at the opening of the bay canted at 45 degs so its tail was away from the runway and over the grass. We pulled up parallel beside him further into the bay but had to wait for temps. By this time the other CJ6 had completed his runup and mover to the runway hold short line. About a minute later a Cessna showed up. The airplane taxied directly at me and then made a hard turn swinging his tail by me and adding a lot of power to tighten the turn. He came to a stop exactly 90 degrees to me with his tail pointed directly at me and his tail only about 10 feet from my right wing tip. He then proceeded to do a runup :shock:. Not only was my airplane shaking from the prop wash but we recieved at least two hits from flying gravel before we were able to pull ahead and get out of the wash. I ascertained later that there was an instructor in the right seat and the student was driving. To say I was extremely disappointed that the instructor did not correct such an obvious example of bad airmanship; is a considerable understatement :evil: .

There is simply no excuse for this all too common problem. Managing your prop wash so as to insure it is not hazarding people/places/other airplanes is Airmanship 101 and should be introduced on LP 1. Students are not born with good airmanship it has to be taught and it is imperative that instructors:

1) Never by their own actions demonstrate poor airmanship, and

2) Always correct poor airmanship practices by their students.

Finally I think that an FTU fixation that runups can only be done if the aircraft is aligned precisely into the wind, may have contributed to what happened to me. The wind on the day in question was about 5 knots. The reality is that the direction of the aircraft for the runup Does Not Matter. A runup conducted Up wind Downwind , Crosswind etc will have no effect on the aircraft. When the wind gets up a bit higher it is desirable to do the runup approximately into the wind. I tell my students "approximately" means the aircraft is aligned within about 45 degrees of the prevailing wind. This helps engine cooling and makes the runup RPM indications steadier. But the bottom line is the aircrafts tail can NEVER be pointed at another aircraft
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by 767 »

Old Dog Flying wrote:
Maybe we should start posting names of schools and individuals who participate in bad airmanship practices.
I would not post the name of the school's. However, I agree that we should start posting the names (and maybe pictures :lol: ) of the individuals.
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by Shiny Side Up »

This subject has been my biggest bitch for many years and it get worse as time goes on. The old "Dumbing Down" of the instructor population is here to stay folks.
I wouldn't say there's a dumbing down, I think its more and more that people just don't care. As we go on the newer generations come from an increasingly throw-away mentality, one where they are increasingly protected, and where they are less and less responsible for fixing and caring for stuff. Anyone remember the days when you actually took a TV or a radio to get repaired? When you used to fix cars yourself? People have forgotten what that's like it seems these days. Even some of the older people have quickly discarded those old ways ad glommed onto the new way things work. Airplanes though - even new ones - still belong to that older age. They need to be cared for, they need to have people being considerate with them and around them, but that's becomming an alien concept these days. People are never held responsible to fix or repair stuff. All the AMEs I talk to these days are always shaking their heads in dismay at the airplanes that come their way, there are few airplanes that don't get the "rented mule" treatment. As an instructor I have to say that the students are increasingly hard on equipment, and its getting worse. No one has a sense of being easy on anything anymore - and that includes stuff that ain't theirs. Everyone's in a rush, no one wants to wait for nothing and they'll galdly shave a chunk of durability off to gain a few seconds.
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Re: Propwash Rant

Post by arturo »

I have it on good authority that, by way of discussion with his instructor and through reading this thread, said student is now acutely aware of the mistake he made and will never make the same error again. :oops: I offer a humble apology to those involved.

Sincerely,

blast-o-matic student
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