Would ACPA want Jazz pilots BOTL?
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Gurundu the Rat
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Would ACPA want Jazz pilots BOTL?
There is a movement among some Jazz pilots (the junior 50%) to have access to the bottom of the seniority list at Air Canada. This would be a good thing for the Jazz pilots and would end the whipsaw battles between the two union groups making it an advantage for ACPA too. Also when the next economic downturn occurs ACPA will have a bigger cushion and Jazz will probably be close to an all jet fleet by then anyways so you wouldn't have to worry about the props. The way I see it, it's a win win situation. I'm interested in what ACPA members think of this as my (Jazz) MEC wont tell me anything. This seems to be cloaked in secrecy and is almost taboo here so tell me why this would or wouldn't work. Thanks.
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Hun IN the SUN
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The Jazz union actually sued Air Canada or ACPA in the late 90's over that exact issue. The wanted to keep the date of hire senority when they moved from Jazz to mainline. So basically any new hire would be way behind someone who moved up from Jazz. Last I heard they lost. And in the meantime they pissed a lot of people off.
It's better to break ground and head into the wind than to break wind and head into the ground.
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Gurundu the Rat
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The Jazz union actually sued Air Canada or ACPA in the late 90's over that exact issue. The wanted to keep the date of hire senority when they moved from Jazz to mainline. So basically any new hire would be way behind someone who moved up from Jazz. Last I heard they lost. And in the meantime they pissed a lot of people off.
Actually the Jazz union has nothing to do with suing anyone. You may be reffering to a lawsuit by some Air Ontario pilots which has nothing to do with us. If Picher is what you are reffering to, they did not loose, they won. That is why ACPA was created and CALPA no longer exists.
That is not my point though. Most pilots at Jazz have been hired after that whole messy battle and don't really care about it. Last we heard there were supposed to be talks about some kind of global solution involving a double end tail scenario in which everyone wins. These talks have broken down for some reason. ACPA is not returning ALPA's phone calls as far as I know. I don't care about the past, It's over. I do care about what will happen in our future and I want to get some talks going to end the whipsaw. Inevitably, if we don't fix it now, history will repeat itself and it will be messy when they layoff pilots again due to the super chicken flu and no more asian flying. If you have suggestions I'd like to hear them as long as they are constructive. Lets not live in the past.
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Spiraldive
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The Calpa A/O-Air BC-Air Nova vs. Air Canada/Acpa thing was decided in the courts over five years ago. The bad blood came from both groups not ever wanting to help each other out in the bad times.
If AC laid off, the regionals wanted nothing to do with employing the furloughed AC pilots. Then when the Regionals started hurting, ACPA was formed so they could return the dis-favour.
Lawsuits were filed claiming cross-company seniority. All of them failed when common-ownership was found not to equal a common-company.
There is still a preferred-hire list at AC fron Jazz, but you have to get on that list from Jazz, then wait for a slot at AC. And you keep no senoirity.
Moral of the story:
Go fly for Jazz if you want to fly for Jazz, not to get on at AC. And don't expect to go fly a Dash-8 when the cruise-pilot thing on the A340 at AC stops working so well for a year or two.
The unions made your bed already, so make sure you pick the right bed before you sleep in it.
If AC laid off, the regionals wanted nothing to do with employing the furloughed AC pilots. Then when the Regionals started hurting, ACPA was formed so they could return the dis-favour.
Lawsuits were filed claiming cross-company seniority. All of them failed when common-ownership was found not to equal a common-company.
There is still a preferred-hire list at AC fron Jazz, but you have to get on that list from Jazz, then wait for a slot at AC. And you keep no senoirity.
Moral of the story:
Go fly for Jazz if you want to fly for Jazz, not to get on at AC. And don't expect to go fly a Dash-8 when the cruise-pilot thing on the A340 at AC stops working so well for a year or two.
The unions made your bed already, so make sure you pick the right bed before you sleep in it.
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Gurundu the Rat
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Some of us had really crappy jobs before joining the regionals. Most of us joined the regionals to eventually flowthrough to mainline. Now that the rules have changed are you suggesting we quit and go work for some other company until we get the phonecall? Yeah, a judge decided that there was no common employor, thats great. But when the ship started sinking all Jazz employees had to give concessions to the mothercorp, and then give a little more in round two even though the regionals were making money. What do we get for our efforts? Blacklisted!
Spiraldive,
If you check you'll find the "preferred-hire list" you mention, better known as LOU 18 no longer exists.
Gurundu the Rat,
Nothing stops anyone at Jazz from applying to main line and being considered just like anyone else...that said botl or even something in the middle ground would likely go over fine with acpa but I doubt alpa is interested.
IMHO
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If you check you'll find the "preferred-hire list" you mention, better known as LOU 18 no longer exists.
Gurundu the Rat,
Nothing stops anyone at Jazz from applying to main line and being considered just like anyone else...that said botl or even something in the middle ground would likely go over fine with acpa but I doubt alpa is interested.
IMHO
29
Yeah, just apply to the mainline like everyone else...and have equal consideration? i doubt it. Jazz pilot is trained on CRJ for $25000 , then 3 months later quits for AC and then they train a replacement. It would be expensive and the training department would have problems keeping up.
I'm sure there is no shortage of qualified pliots out there in canada that they can hire .
The unions at AC and JAZZ are controlled by the senior pilots. This is proven time and time again. They had the opportunity to fix things with global solution and have failed. When Air canada are still in thismess 15 years from now those senior pilots will have retired. i do not believe you will get anywhere talking to the union at jazz about mainline hiring -that has been made clear as the senior pilots have a few 705's fly around and things seem great from the left seat.
The future? Jazz parks all DHC-100's (likely) and gets a the ordered a/c up to the fleet plan of around 135 a/c. little movement at jazz because retirement is not till 65 yrs, and the only growth will occur due to limited retirments and from pliots who quit (the new working rules have less reserve pilots).
The embrarer is the superior a/c , and will do a significant amt of the domestic flying. Milton cannot stop talking about it-Those that say Jazz is the cheaper alternative and the answer are wrong! Jazz may be a little cheaper but there is a price to be paid for the stability of the bigger unions at mainline. Most of AC money is made in the overseas and aeroplan/tech services etc-not competing with westjet/canjet for a low yeild market. jazz will remain a small a/c fleet with little movement, it has its niche-feeding and maybe developing some new routes. Just my humble opinion.
I'm sure there is no shortage of qualified pliots out there in canada that they can hire .
The unions at AC and JAZZ are controlled by the senior pilots. This is proven time and time again. They had the opportunity to fix things with global solution and have failed. When Air canada are still in thismess 15 years from now those senior pilots will have retired. i do not believe you will get anywhere talking to the union at jazz about mainline hiring -that has been made clear as the senior pilots have a few 705's fly around and things seem great from the left seat.
The future? Jazz parks all DHC-100's (likely) and gets a the ordered a/c up to the fleet plan of around 135 a/c. little movement at jazz because retirement is not till 65 yrs, and the only growth will occur due to limited retirments and from pliots who quit (the new working rules have less reserve pilots).
The embrarer is the superior a/c , and will do a significant amt of the domestic flying. Milton cannot stop talking about it-Those that say Jazz is the cheaper alternative and the answer are wrong! Jazz may be a little cheaper but there is a price to be paid for the stability of the bigger unions at mainline. Most of AC money is made in the overseas and aeroplan/tech services etc-not competing with westjet/canjet for a low yeild market. jazz will remain a small a/c fleet with little movement, it has its niche-feeding and maybe developing some new routes. Just my humble opinion.
With respect to retiring the -100's, what is the timeline for that? For destinations served only by -100's now will that mean dropping out altogether or cutting frequency to the point where a -300 would make sense.
Specifically Cranbrook, Castlegar, Smithers, Penticton, Kamloops etc.
Specifically Cranbrook, Castlegar, Smithers, Penticton, Kamloops etc.
No special agreement is in place to hire from Jazz now. It is unlikely that AC will go out of their way to hire from the connectors now also.
There was an attempt at a Global Solution last year. There may be others ongoing, but likely nothing will come of that.
The one last fall failed because ALPA insisted on being the bargaining agent, without a vote - amongst other things. Proceeding without a vote may be acceptable to ALPA, but unconstitional under ACPA. A representation vote is required, and may even be under the CIRB, I don't know. There were other issues that ALPA threw into the mix that complicated a basic principle. The $300M lawsuit of the AO pilots is a complication that has not been entirely removed or dropped. There are suits against x- AC-CALPA exec, and members that are outstanding also. Why send dues money to support the Herndon operation and US ALPA? You can bet that if there is an issue between a Canadian carrier and a US one, that Canada will be treated as badly as the connector carriers have been in the USA or worse. There are rumours of a USAir/America West/AC merger floating around, so no way that ALPA is the way to go on that issue.
The Picher finding was the end result of a process gone wrong within CALPA that started in the early 90's. Picher came out in 1995 which recognized dates of hire that were unacceptable to the AC-CALPA pilots, including dates from Austin Airways, White River Air Services, and West Coast among others. This included some famous names in the industry that used their swamping on the dock dates according to rumour.
When AC was part of CALPA, the MEC could declare many things without a vote of the membership. Probably that is the existing situation at ALPA now. The membership did not want to enter into a merger process with the connector pilots of the time. That process was an internal union process.
The connectors were created as AC entities in the mid to late 80s. Air BC and Air Ontario became AC connectors in about 1985-87 era. The connector carriers were allowed to join CALPA , as a good will gesture to the union 'brothers'. That didn't last long.
The connectors had many bases in comparison to AC. The represenation in the union was far in excess of the connector population in comparison to AC with far less bases, more pilots, and paying the bulk of the dues to the union.
The relationship between AC and CP/PWA declined in the late 80's, early 90s, during the tough times that both airlines were having over the first Gulf War, high fuel prices, and recession. CAIL was on the ropes. AC was losing tons of cash. There was talk of a merger then. AMR stepped in as the white knight. There was serious bad blood, and that spilled over into the union. There was a block of CAIL and connectors that lined up against AC CALPA to make life as miserable as possible within the union.
After Picher in the spring of 1995, CALPA tried to impose the Picher ruling by attempting to bypass the AC-CALPA local. The CALPA President tried to negotiate directly with AC, around the AC pilots' bargaining agent. The President of IFALPA at the time was a CAIL pilot RJ McInnis, who was later a thorn in the side of the AC pilots during the merger, too. He ended up blacklisting ACPA with IFALPA after the decertification that Picher precipitated. Picher was merely the last straw that broke the camel's back for AC-CALPA. The attempts to get some reasonable balance of representation by pilot population went unheeded by the connector pilots who had control. AC was supported by CAIL, then that support was withdrawn, blindsiding AC-CALPA within the union. The die was cast and memberships to the new union sold like hotcakes during the sprind and summer of 1995.
After forming ACPA, many attempts were made to bring the connector pilots into the AC seniority list, but either AC was hiring or AC was in recession and the connectors were going great guns. AC furloughed in 1993, and the connector pilots insisted that the AC pilots take the lumps, sit at the bottom, IF they could get hired. The target was always moving, as it will start to move very quickly now too. BOTL now will not be BOTL of next fall, or next year. The BOTL deals of the 1995, 96, 97 would make pretty much every Jazz pilot of that time quite senior now.
There is very little hope for any GS, unless it is a total acceptance of a very basic principle that can be guaranteed not to be challenged, and that will be accepted by the CIRB. There's too much risk after the s#1tkicking that the AC pilots took over the merger to risk going before the CIRB again. They are currently raping the AC pilot contract in conjunction with the deals that AC continues to make with the connector pilots. Why would there be any reason to even consider ANY deal with Jazz at this point? Hire off the street and give all the guys that have been building time on the crap jobs a chance to take a pay cut, but still will appreciate the opportunity more likely. If AC mergers as mentioned above, there will be NO hiring with over 1900 USAir pilots on furlough.
There was an attempt at a Global Solution last year. There may be others ongoing, but likely nothing will come of that.
The one last fall failed because ALPA insisted on being the bargaining agent, without a vote - amongst other things. Proceeding without a vote may be acceptable to ALPA, but unconstitional under ACPA. A representation vote is required, and may even be under the CIRB, I don't know. There were other issues that ALPA threw into the mix that complicated a basic principle. The $300M lawsuit of the AO pilots is a complication that has not been entirely removed or dropped. There are suits against x- AC-CALPA exec, and members that are outstanding also. Why send dues money to support the Herndon operation and US ALPA? You can bet that if there is an issue between a Canadian carrier and a US one, that Canada will be treated as badly as the connector carriers have been in the USA or worse. There are rumours of a USAir/America West/AC merger floating around, so no way that ALPA is the way to go on that issue.
The Picher finding was the end result of a process gone wrong within CALPA that started in the early 90's. Picher came out in 1995 which recognized dates of hire that were unacceptable to the AC-CALPA pilots, including dates from Austin Airways, White River Air Services, and West Coast among others. This included some famous names in the industry that used their swamping on the dock dates according to rumour.
When AC was part of CALPA, the MEC could declare many things without a vote of the membership. Probably that is the existing situation at ALPA now. The membership did not want to enter into a merger process with the connector pilots of the time. That process was an internal union process.
The connectors were created as AC entities in the mid to late 80s. Air BC and Air Ontario became AC connectors in about 1985-87 era. The connector carriers were allowed to join CALPA , as a good will gesture to the union 'brothers'. That didn't last long.
The connectors had many bases in comparison to AC. The represenation in the union was far in excess of the connector population in comparison to AC with far less bases, more pilots, and paying the bulk of the dues to the union.
The relationship between AC and CP/PWA declined in the late 80's, early 90s, during the tough times that both airlines were having over the first Gulf War, high fuel prices, and recession. CAIL was on the ropes. AC was losing tons of cash. There was talk of a merger then. AMR stepped in as the white knight. There was serious bad blood, and that spilled over into the union. There was a block of CAIL and connectors that lined up against AC CALPA to make life as miserable as possible within the union.
After Picher in the spring of 1995, CALPA tried to impose the Picher ruling by attempting to bypass the AC-CALPA local. The CALPA President tried to negotiate directly with AC, around the AC pilots' bargaining agent. The President of IFALPA at the time was a CAIL pilot RJ McInnis, who was later a thorn in the side of the AC pilots during the merger, too. He ended up blacklisting ACPA with IFALPA after the decertification that Picher precipitated. Picher was merely the last straw that broke the camel's back for AC-CALPA. The attempts to get some reasonable balance of representation by pilot population went unheeded by the connector pilots who had control. AC was supported by CAIL, then that support was withdrawn, blindsiding AC-CALPA within the union. The die was cast and memberships to the new union sold like hotcakes during the sprind and summer of 1995.
After forming ACPA, many attempts were made to bring the connector pilots into the AC seniority list, but either AC was hiring or AC was in recession and the connectors were going great guns. AC furloughed in 1993, and the connector pilots insisted that the AC pilots take the lumps, sit at the bottom, IF they could get hired. The target was always moving, as it will start to move very quickly now too. BOTL now will not be BOTL of next fall, or next year. The BOTL deals of the 1995, 96, 97 would make pretty much every Jazz pilot of that time quite senior now.
There is very little hope for any GS, unless it is a total acceptance of a very basic principle that can be guaranteed not to be challenged, and that will be accepted by the CIRB. There's too much risk after the s#1tkicking that the AC pilots took over the merger to risk going before the CIRB again. They are currently raping the AC pilot contract in conjunction with the deals that AC continues to make with the connector pilots. Why would there be any reason to even consider ANY deal with Jazz at this point? Hire off the street and give all the guys that have been building time on the crap jobs a chance to take a pay cut, but still will appreciate the opportunity more likely. If AC mergers as mentioned above, there will be NO hiring with over 1900 USAir pilots on furlough.
Good summary, balls, I enjoyed reading it.
Can you elaborate on your statements regarding a merger with American carriers? At first I understood you to mean the unions, but it sounds like you mean the carriers themselves. How is this possible? And how could American pilots possibly fly for Air Canada? Why would we want to let them?
If that day comes, I think it'll be time for a change in career.
Can you elaborate on your statements regarding a merger with American carriers? At first I understood you to mean the unions, but it sounds like you mean the carriers themselves. How is this possible? And how could American pilots possibly fly for Air Canada? Why would we want to let them?
If that day comes, I think it'll be time for a change in career.
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Gurundu the Rat
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The junior pilots at Jazz are about to start a revolution of sorts since the senior pilots who control the union wont let the membership vote on straight BOTL at AC or double endtail scenario. Would ACPA support the junior Jazz pilots who have had enough with the bickering and just accept BOTL and get on with it? Or de we have to wait until AC cancels the Embraer order and replace them with Dash-8 400's at Jazz to get the talks going again? Food for thought.
And I dont care about the past. In a car there is a big windshield, and a small rear view mirror...Best to look forward.
And I dont care about the past. In a car there is a big windshield, and a small rear view mirror...Best to look forward.
USAir/America West is a rumour, but there are a couple of indications that there may be some substance to that. There will be consolidation, and probably transborder is a possibilty. I have NO idea why AC would consider this after the fiasco of the AC/CAIL merger. Mergers are notoriously unsuccessful, particularly in the airline industry. AC/CAIL was just about proven to be the rule, and could even still do so, but I think that they are over the 'hump' on that now and after CCAA.
On the BOTL issue. A basic double endtail would probably work. Protection of bases, flow down, and all that other stuff clutters up the possibilty of an agreement.
If you have ANY chance of doing a deal, it has to be in the next couple of months or it's totally dead, and the target will be moving so fast that you will not be able to hit it - until the next downturn. I think it probably is anyway.
Simple, and rock solid to challenges. There can be NO possibility that some disaffected group or dissatisfied individual pilot can launch a challenge to have the list re-ordered once an agreement is made - that includes all parties. If there is any sense that there is some risk to doing a deal, it will NOT happen. ALPA will likely not ever allow that to happen on so many levels, unless the pilots that do want it, organize themselves under the policies of ALPA. That means making your motion to direct your LEC, demanding meetings at all your bases more or less simultaneously, making sure you have a quorum, and pack the meeting with people that support the motion, and tie up your LEC, and MEC with that motion. That is democracy, but ALPA is not really that democratic - ergo the reason that ACPA left. (But there are problems with ACPA too!)
On the BOTL issue. A basic double endtail would probably work. Protection of bases, flow down, and all that other stuff clutters up the possibilty of an agreement.
If you have ANY chance of doing a deal, it has to be in the next couple of months or it's totally dead, and the target will be moving so fast that you will not be able to hit it - until the next downturn. I think it probably is anyway.
Simple, and rock solid to challenges. There can be NO possibility that some disaffected group or dissatisfied individual pilot can launch a challenge to have the list re-ordered once an agreement is made - that includes all parties. If there is any sense that there is some risk to doing a deal, it will NOT happen. ALPA will likely not ever allow that to happen on so many levels, unless the pilots that do want it, organize themselves under the policies of ALPA. That means making your motion to direct your LEC, demanding meetings at all your bases more or less simultaneously, making sure you have a quorum, and pack the meeting with people that support the motion, and tie up your LEC, and MEC with that motion. That is democracy, but ALPA is not really that democratic - ergo the reason that ACPA left. (But there are problems with ACPA too!)
the -100's will be retired when the new pax wgts take effect for jazz-we have an excemption for now..
Cancell the emb order for q400-i highly doubt it. The market will ultimately determine what milton will do as the orders are flexible. That is the "jazz is the solution" attitude again-from jazz alpa union leaders no doubt. As i said before , jazz has a job to do and it ends there.
As far as ALPA is concerned, they have done many things over their history that is great but remember this-alpa is all about dues , dues , dues. the loss of the Jazz pilot group in dues would be significant loss of revenue and that is the top priority for alpa.
Good on ACPA for creating their own union representing just their pilots.
Cancell the emb order for q400-i highly doubt it. The market will ultimately determine what milton will do as the orders are flexible. That is the "jazz is the solution" attitude again-from jazz alpa union leaders no doubt. As i said before , jazz has a job to do and it ends there.
As far as ALPA is concerned, they have done many things over their history that is great but remember this-alpa is all about dues , dues , dues. the loss of the Jazz pilot group in dues would be significant loss of revenue and that is the top priority for alpa.
Good on ACPA for creating their own union representing just their pilots.
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Gurundu the Rat
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My point was as long as there is potential to whipsaw, the company will use it to their advantage, in no way did I mean to suggest the Emb order would be replaced by Q400's, just that the potential for whipsawing still exists. I don't want to start any rumors here. As for the ALPA dues you are exactly right on the money. That is why common sense can't prevail at Jazz as long as ALPA is in control. There is a huge conflict of interest right now and that is why the more junior Jazz pilots are stuck in no mans land. If the representation issue is the only reason Global Solution did not work, I am sure a vast majority of Jazz pilots would have voted to drop ALPA and join ACPA (JMO). But then again they don't let us vote on that kind of stuff because they know what the outcome of such a vote would be.
Would it even be legal for an American and a Canadian carrier to merge? Aren't there foreign ownership restrictions? And how in the world would they sort out the pilot roster? From what I understand Canadians cannot work in the States and Americans cannot work in Canada (dual citizenship aside).
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flyer 1492
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The company would never want one group as they use it as leverage. ACPA does not want anything to do with jazz pilots because it simple does not benifit them. ACPA members votes on most things. ALPA members rarely do vote on anything other than electing their reps.
The fact that ACPA does not return phone calls is a half truth from the union because ALPA does notusually volunteer all information so how do you know for sure ?
i also feel for the junior pilots at jazz-they have be pulled into a fight that should of been settled long time ago and are held hostage by their union leadership.
The fact that ACPA does not return phone calls is a half truth from the union because ALPA does notusually volunteer all information so how do you know for sure ?
i also feel for the junior pilots at jazz-they have be pulled into a fight that should of been settled long time ago and are held hostage by their union leadership.
A quick question for any ACPA guys on here. Do you really care where A/C hires its pilots from? You always hear about the senior guys wanting to make sure they can get their kids in but would it be a big deal to hire say 80% from Jazz. I can't see how that would hurt the ACPA pilots in any way. If you are at Jazz and want to go to Mainline then you would get a shot, if you are happy to stay where you are then you stay. Maybe its too simple a solution to work.... lol
I agree with you on the point that ACPA is not interested. The reasons aren't an accurate perceptoin. I does not benefit ACPA, true, because there have been so many attempts, at great expense to find a reasonable compromise. As I mentioned before, the groups of each side have never been syncronized in the pendulum of the growth or recession. You attempt to point the finger at ACPA, but that is unreasonable. There have been many trips to the table, and at great cost to both sides.piggy wrote:The company would never want one group as they use it as leverage. ACPA does not want anything to do with jazz pilots because it simple does not benifit them. ACPA members votes on most things. ALPA members rarely do vote on anything other than electing their reps.
The fact that ACPA does not return phone calls is a half truth from the union because ALPA does notusually volunteer all information so how do you know for sure ?
i also feel for the junior pilots at jazz-they have be pulled into a fight that should of been settled long time ago and are held hostage by their union leadership.
At some point you have to say 'enough already'. ACPA DID come to the table last year, and the result was the same. The perception I have is that ALPA plays the game too much. They were attempting to get talk to ACPA about a GS, and then back stab us in CCAA to gut the scope clause, and in the end, a large portion of OUR contract, while still attempting to play nice and get on the ACPA seniority list at the same time. SHEESH, then keep on demanding more at the table from ACPA with regard to concessions that should be made to accommodate ALPA, etc. So the impression I get is that ALPA really doesn't want a deal, and has never been really serious about a deal over the last 10 years.
