Advice

[DaveC]

Hey all, looking for some advice here.

I'm a 130 TT PPL (CPL student) looking to build time (I hear 1000 PIC is the magic number these days?), so I need to build quite a bit of time.

For the last month I've been looking at 150's and 152s to buy, since renting doesn't make sense for the amount of hours I need. I've got $25,000 saved.

Buying a 150 seems to make sense, but everything I've gone to look at has had me thinking about some major problems I will have with it (either now, or when I want to sell it). I can't seem to find a 150/152 that is reasonably equipped and generally low time (Anywhere from 0 - 500 hours because I wont be able to sell a plane if it ends up having 1600 SMOH after I am done with it). Importing a 150 from the states doesn't make sense - they are too cheap to make it worthwhile.

There is a 150, 0 time engine, 18500 TTAF, ex-school aircraft. Well equipped (IFR) package, asking $28,000. Asking price seems very steep but the seller insists on this price. He has also given me the opportunity partner ($14,000) or rent block time @ $50/hr ($25/hr of which will go towards ownership, if I want to buy it later down the road). Block time sounds nice - problem is, I'm still buying an over-valued air plane at the end of the day with a huge amount of hours on the frame (I had some advice in the Maintenance forum to stay away because of high-time frame repair costs)

The plane I am currently flying (which performs like shit, and needs new avionics) is also a consideration. The owner has asked if I would like to partner with her. Nice thing about it is that she never flies the thing so I have it to myself whenever I want it. How much would it cost to buy a decent radio and VOR + installation?

Not interested in the instructing route (which would be a good time builder) since i'd need to quit my job. Advice, anyone?

[Colonel Sanders]

18500 TTAF ... asking $28,000

Run away. As far as you can.

How much would it cost to buy a decent radio and VOR + installation?

Don't do it. Unless you plan to keep an aircraft for a very long time,
installing radios is financial suicide. As a rule of thumb, the value of
the aircraft only goes up half of what you spend on the radio installation,
which can be very expensive.

Keep looking! Find an aircraft that won't be a problem to sell,
and won't cost you $$$. I might suggest something with mid-time
engine, and <5000 TTAF and the radios you need.

[photofly]

Explain again why you don't want to import one?

[DaveC]

Explain again why you don't want to import one?

I've heard so many horror stories about import problems/costs. Do you have any positive experiences to share WRT to importing? Not sure how much of a pain in the ass it would be to import something. I'm planning on going to Florida in December (26th - Jan 3rd) I guess I could look around while I am down there.

Everything in the states LOOKS much better for the money. Low time aircraft with fresh paint and good avionics for $20,000. I've been looking online and on the COPA plane trade and there really isn't much to choose from.

[robertsailor1]

I've imported so many aircraft over the years I can't even keep count. Aircraft is an aircraft and your just as likely to get stung on one here as you are there. Having said that you do need a base knowledge or someone that you trust that has, otherwise it can be a less than gratifying experience.

[straightpilot]

Importing an aircraft from the USA hings upon the FAA form 337's
which you can request for any N-reg aircraft for $10 from the FAA.

If there are any murky 337's which describe complicated or mysterious
damage, or modifications that are not supported by an STC, walk away.

Or if there is physical evidence on the aircraft of damage repair
or modifications which are NOT documented in the logbooks,
RUN away.

All AD's must be complied with, both on paper and physically.
Documentation is everything, esp for AD's that don't apply (why?)

You also want complete logbooks. Non-negotiable. You
must also clear all liens registered with the FAA otherwise
they won't de-register it. Don't be surprised if there is a
lien from the 1950's from a bank that doesn't exist any more.


A friend of mine recently imported a mid-60's 172 and his
import was quick and easy, because it was not damaged or
modified without an STC. He got quite a deal!

Like anything else, if you know how, it's easy. If you don't
know how, expect to spend $10k and wait at least 6 months
as you try to correct stuff that Transport doesn't like.

There are so many traps and gotchas I can't begin to describe
them all, but ...

Check the engine and prop model against the type certificate?
Are they listed? Or, are they eligible for installation via an STC?

You wouldn't believe the number of certified aircraft out there
that have had their engines replaced at overhaul with another
engine with different letters at the end, which fit just fine, and
might have been working just fine for 10 years, but is an illegal
installation, because that engine is NOT eligible for installation
into that airplane because no one ever added it to the type
certificate, or pushed the paper for an STC.

Ditto for the prop.

It annoys me when people here say, "Oh yeah, importing
an aircraft is easy" Yeah, after the first 10, it gets
easier. Lots of expensive lessons learned along the way.

Heck, just delivering the aircraft to Canada is a project.

[photofly]

Do you have any positive experiences to share WRT to importing?

I imported one. Overall, yes, a positive experience. The way to save unnecessary spending is to mug up on what doing an import actually involves. It's easy to spend money fixing squawks that don't, as far as the import process goes, need to be fixed.

Another way to look at it is to realise that buying anyone's used aircraft, in Canada or in the US, means you're likely buying a few (or more) things that need to be fixed, for which you'll have to find the cash.

The thing to remember with buying a US plane for import is avoid anything that has modifications approved by a local FSDO not accompanied by an STC. They will have to be removed or reversed before TC will accept the aircraft as meeting its original type certificate and issue a C of A. (Find a nearby Minister's Delegate, who does the TC inspection, and talk with them.)

Also you have to do some jiggling to get the aircraft into Canada under it's US registration (and hence flown by an FAA certificated pilot) before buying it - because once sold to a non-US citizen the registration is instantly invalidated. Use an escrow service, AOPA can recommend some.

The best reason for considering it is exactly the situation you're in - you can't find the aircraft you want at the price you want in Canada.


One last thing - budget for 13%HST or whatever, at import.

[photofly]

There are so many traps and gotchas I can't begin to describe
them all, but ...

Checking the paperwork carefully is just as important when buying a Canadian aircraft. It's not inconceivable that a Canadian aircraft has the wrong engine, prop, or whatever.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Hey all, looking for some advice here.

I'm a 130 TT PPL (CPL student) looking to build time (I hear 1000 PIC is the magic number these days?), so I need to build quite a bit of time.

For the last month I've been looking at 150's and 152s to buy, since renting doesn't make sense for the amount of hours I need. I've got $25,000 saved.

Buying a 150 seems to make sense, but everything I've gone to look at has had me thinking about some major problems I will have with it (either now, or when I want to sell it). I can't seem to find a 150/152 that is reasonably equipped and generally low time (Anywhere from 0 - 500 hours because I wont be able to sell a plane if it ends up having 1600 SMOH after I am done with it). Importing a 150 from the states doesn't make sense - they are too cheap to make it worthwhile.

There is a 150, 0 time engine, 18500 TTAF, ex-school aircraft. Well equipped (IFR) package, asking $28,000. Asking price seems very steep but the seller insists on this price. He has also given me the opportunity partner ($14,000) or rent block time @ $50/hr ($25/hr of which will go towards ownership, if I want to buy it later down the road). Block time sounds nice - problem is, I'm still buying an over-valued air plane at the end of the day with a huge amount of hours on the frame (I had some advice in the Maintenance forum to stay away because of high-time frame repair costs)

The plane I am currently flying (which performs like shit, and needs new avionics) is also a consideration. The owner has asked if I would like to partner with her. Nice thing about it is that she never flies the thing so I have it to myself whenever I want it. How much would it cost to buy a decent radio and VOR + installation?

Not interested in the instructing route (which would be a good time builder) since i'd need to quit my job. Advice, anyone?

I think you are starting from a fundamentally flawed premise. After gaining a CPL you are expected to build time by working as a pilot. A thousand hours of private flying driving around in your C 150 is not going to impress employers. More importantly as a commercial pilot you are the operator of the tool the business uses to (hopefully) make money. A company hiring looking to hire a pilot with a 1000 hours will have his pick of guys/gals that of have been exposed to the regulatory, business and customer management side of the business. You will have None of this experience. Here is a partial off the top of my head stream of consciousness list of some of the things you will be clueless about: PPC,PCC, OC,MCM,MPM,OFP,Manifest,Operational Control,DG, Elementary Maintenance task card etc etc.

Bottom line: You can't buy experience.........

[photofly]

However, you will have experience of owning and maintaining an aircraft, and complying with all the regulatory cr*p that entails. How many 1000-hour flight instructors are familiar with the alphabet soup?

See also:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=74048
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=76104
and probably a dozen other threads.

[straightpilot]

A thousand hours of private flying driving around in your C 150 is not going to impress

Disagree. Hours are hours. Look at the job ads,
and it's all about hours in your logbook.

Someone that's spent 1000 hours flying a 150 all
over North America has gained a heck of a lot of
real-world experience that IMHO is a lot more valuable
that driving around the same circuit for 1000 hours
in the right seat.

PPC,PCC, OC,MCM,MPM,OFP

You can pick up the chickensh1t quick enough. Enjoy
the 1000 hours of wonderful freedom.

You can't buy experience

uh, no, you most certainly can, by working a
crappy job for poverty wages you are subsidizing
an unscrupulous employer, which is buying experience.

If you can buy an airplane to build time, to get
ahead, do it. Don't listen to people whom are
disgruntled that you are getting ahead of them.
Life isn't fair sometimes.

[Big Pistons Forever]

If you can buy an airplane to build time, to get
ahead, do it. Don't listen to people whom are
disgruntled that you are getting ahead of them.
Life isn't fair sometimes.

Go ahead Buy your 870 hours on a C 150 at a cost of at the very minimum $ 70000. Then go out and get an entry level job and guess what..... you will probably be paid the same as the guy with 250 hours. Yup what a plan

[AEROBAT]

A thousand hours of private flying driving around in your C 150 is not going to impress

Disagree. Hours are hours. Look at the job ads,
and it's all about hours in your logbook.

Someone that's spent 1000 hours flying a 150 all
over North America has gained a heck of a lot of
real-world experience that IMHO is a lot more valuable
that driving around the same circuit for 1000 hours
in the right seat.

PPC,PCC, OC,MCM,MPM,OFP

You can pick up the chickensh1t quick enough. Enjoy
the 1000 hours of wonderful freedom.

You can't buy experience

uh, no, you most certainly can, by working a
crappy job for poverty wages you are subsidizing
an unscrupulous employer, which is buying experience.

If you can buy an airplane to build time, to get
ahead, do it. Don't listen to people whom are
disgruntled that you are getting ahead of them.
Life isn't fair sometimes.

+1

[robertsailor1]

Well one thing for sure, owning and maintaining an aircraft gives you experience you'll never gain doing circuits at your local airport in a rental, not that there is anything wrong with that. When you own your own aircraft you make all your own decisions, when to fly, where to fly and in what weather to fly. You don't have a flight school making these decisions for you so your experience level is on a different level and I would suggest all of it an asset to your first job.

[photofly]

On the subject of imports, and random 337's, I note this from another thread: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/o ... 03-968.htm

Para. 7.4.2 - seems to imply that random field approvals *are* ok on imported aircraft.

[straightpilot]

See flowchart in App F referenced by 7.4.4 - major mods are NOT rubber stamped by TC! Read note (d).

Again, this is one of the many painful and expensive lessons you learn during your first 10 imports.

[photofly]

I don't think anyone said "rubber stamped" - it appears to depends on the data that accompanies the 337. However, if the data is OK then the mod is OK.

[Dagwood]

If you can afford to buy 870 flight hours, you must have one helluva real job. Why not keep it and just fly for fun?

I have seen a high time (somewhere between 1000-2000 hrs) pilot get hired for his first commercial job. He built up that time renting a light twin over several years. Realistically, he was no further ahead and had just as much to learn as any 200 hr wonder.

[DaveC]

If you can afford to buy 870 flight hours, you must have one helluva real job. Why not keep it and just fly for fun?

I have seen a high time (somewhere between 1000-2000 hrs) pilot get hired for his first commercial job. He built up that time renting a light twin over several years. Realistically, he was no further ahead and had just as much to learn as any 200 hr wonder.

Well, the reason I'm buying a plane is so I can cut the cost of renting a plane significantly. 870 hours @ 60 hr isn't that much money over a 2-3 years. I estimate with the current costs of fuel, 60 per hour wet including fixed cost with $15 an hour put towards an overhaul.

Multi time will be a problem but I'll deal with that when I get there.

This thread has kind of spun off on a tangent. Thank you all for your input I appreciate it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Well, the reason I'm buying a plane is so I can cut the cost of renting a plane significantly. 870 hours @ 60 hr isn't that much money over a 2-3 years. I estimate with the current costs of fuel, 60 per hour wet including fixed cost with $15 an hour put towards an overhaul.

.

As a general comment I think most first time buyers significantly underestimate the true cost of owning an airplane. 60 dollars and hour is pretty much half of what an FTU will charge to rent a C 150/152. Yes there are extra costs to running an aircraft commercially as well as pricing to allow a (small) profit but they do not amount to a doubling of the costs.

I am afraid your math does not with stand the most basic scrutiny. $60 minus the 15 overhaul reserve means a direct operating cost of $45 an hour but a C 150 burns about 6 gallons an hour. Avgas is now about $1.80 a liter. So $ 1.80 X 3.8 Litre/gallon X 6 Gallons an hour = $ 41.04. A liter of oil costs about $6 and the airplane will burn a liter every 5 hours so now we are at $41.04 + $1.20 = $ 42. 24. So you will have $2.76 left to cover all maintenance, tiedown, insurance, depreciation etc etc. This is clearly unrealistic. Also It is improbable you could go 870 hours without at least one major maintenance event, and by major I mean an unexpected repair that will cost $5000 or more. I recommend you do a search as there are many threads which discuss the cost of ownership. I fly for Pie, In particular has many excellent posts on this subject and he is an expert.

Owning you own aircraft has many advantages over renting. You avoid the FTU booking hassle, there are no daily minimums , the last renter hasn't puked in the aircraft, you have direct control over its condition etc etc. However for most people renting will in the long run be the cheapest. I do not want to rain on your parade, I simply want to give you some things to consider. I am on my 5 th owned aircraft and so I believe I have a pretty good handle on the true costs of ownership

[photofly]

$145/hr for a 152, and $280 for a 182, at my nearest flight school. And that's electrics on to electrics off, i.e. you pay full price for the 0.3 of taxi time too. Hard not to beat those, for a sensible number of annual hours flown, by ownership.

[robertsailor1]

Another consideration is to either buy block time or get into a partnership or small club, each of these can offer a chance to reduce your hourly costs.

[Beefitarian]

$145/hr for a 152, and $280 for a 182, at my nearest flight school. And that's electrics on to electrics off, i.e. you pay full price for the 0.3 of taxi time too. Hard not to beat those, for a sensible number of annual hours flown, by ownership.

Owie. Here I am sad because the 172 here is slightly more.

I keep wondering if I could sustainably rent out a twin somewhere. I realize I can't profit but could I get free use of a plane out of it? If I set it up in a small town to reduce my hanger cost. Take it with an instructor to the cities once in a while. How much could I over charge for a check out followed by multi time building if I'm the only game in Canada?

Maybe it would be worth losing my down payment and excellent credit rating when the plane is repoed, to come out with 100 hours multi time.

[SuperchargedRS]

I dont think this is going to work out as well as you think.

However

I know of one canuck that converted to a US PPL, bought a single engine N reg aircraft, brought it up north built up some hours, think he took his CPL down south and converted to TC.

Point being there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat.

Not that you are going to listen, but I think it will be cheaper and better to just take a low paying entry job (and arnt all entry jobs low paying anyways!) to build up your hours that way. Banner towing, working at a DZ, etc. plenty of jobs that can be had if you are willing to put your feelers out there and bust your ass a little bit.

Also flying a little spam can 150 around your home drome for 1k hrs seems like a stagnant experience builder to me.

[Beefitarian]

I know of one canuck that converted to a US PPL, bought a single engine N reg aircraft, brought it up north built up some hours, think he took his CPL down south and converted to TC.

I knew a guy that bought a light twin. He told me the cost savings were huge. It's looking more attractive reading things here. I'm kind of stuck on the idea of importing to my home country if I ever bought a plane and I'm not even sure why.