first aircraft

[blranch]

although i am still taking flight training i'm thinking of buying an airplane to train on and fly afterwords . the local ame is recomending a certain late 60's cherokee 180 with 4500ish ttsn and 1000ish smoh , it has recent paint and interior but minimal avionics. i think the asking price is to high, is there any way to know what the average recent price for an aircraft like that would be? or what should i be comfortable paying? or is it just a bad idea sorry for pad spelling and punctuation

[robertsailor1]

What type of flying do you think you'll be doing??

[SuperchargedRS]

Price the market??

Barnstormers.com
Controller.com

etc.

[trey kule]

A great appraisal on trade-a-plane site

[blranch]

i checked out trade-a-plane they value it around $35000 but the asking price is $55000, i expect i'd make them upset with that offer. does trade-a-plane a good indication of canadian pricing and if so is there any correlation between asking and selling prices?

[straightpilot]

trade-a-plane a good indication of canadian pricing

No. Canadian prices for identical aircraft are FAR above US prices, for various reasons. Hence the recent increase in imports, which works if you know what you are doing, and costs you time and $$$ if you don't.

Any Canadian aircraft seller would be insulted if you offered the US market price. They think they aircraft is worth far more because it is C-registered.

[CpnCrunch]

Here's the way it works in Canada...owner thinks "I've spent $20k on this in the last year, year, so it must be worth X" or "I paid X so it must be worth X". Advertises plane for $20k over market price. 6 months later with no bites, reduces price a little. 6 months after that, reduces price a LOT. Eventually plane gets sold for $10k or 20k below original asking price!

You need to do some research...most planes are overpriced and have been for sale for a long time. You need to either find out what price planes are selling for (which is difficult in Canada), or just look at all the planes for sale and find the cheapest price for the equivalent plane - that will give you the market price.

Or you can find the US market price using sites like vrefpub.com and add 10-20% to the price. If you're a COPA member (which I would recommend, as they have lots of useful info for buying planes), they will give you a free vref quote.

Don't buy the first plane you see...look around a bit and you'll get a better idea.

Oh, and find out when the engine was overhauled. Most "1000SMOH" engines were overhauled in the 70s, which is not really any better than 2000SMOH (and might be a lot worse if the plane hasn't flown much recently).

[Deltawidget]

Unforutnately, there is no way to know the actual selling price.

When I was searching for a 4 seat Piper, what I did was list out all the aircraft, TTSN, SMOH, avionics, etc etc...

I did 2 things that also helped. First, IF there was an aircraft that seemed to sell quickly, (i.e. was only listed for 1 month) then you could guess that the selling price was probably close to the asking. Usually owners don't accept a low ball offer quickly unless they are being forced to sell for whatever reason. After watching a few 4 seat PA28 Pipers sell, you can sort of gauge their selling price. There are plenty of PA28's for sale that you can compare... Cherokee 140's are generally a bit less (10-15K) than their bigger brother the 180. Piper Warriors are around the 180, and Archer's are about 10K more.

It takes a lot of research and is tedious and time consuming. It can take a year or more to find an aircraft that has been well maintained and reasonably priced. 55K for a Cherokee 180 with minimal avionics is high. If they had a decent set of avionics, then perhaps, but if you ever wanted to install decent radios, you can spend 15K and up for that.

I have had a good experience working with aviation unlimited at Buttonville (Issac Capua). Try giving them a call..they are reasonable.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There are already many threads on avcanada asking variations on the question you have asked. I would suggest doing a bit of searching.........

[whipline]

Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to import an aircraft from the US? All the toys I buy now are from the US. It littarally takes an extra 15 minutes at the border, an inspection at Canadian tire for the trailers, 220 fee and 10 minutes of paper work to register said toy.

[robertsailor1]

Importing is reasonably easy if you know exactly what your doing, not so much fun if you don't!

[Colonel Sanders]

how difficult is it to import an aircraft from the US

Depending upon the aircraft and your experience, it can either be very fast and cheap, or it can be very slow and expensive, with two identically-appearing airplanes.

One might have perfect paperwork, and the other one might be a paperwork nightmare. You can't tell that by looking at how shiny the paint is. An import is all about the paper, and unless you're an expert at paper - or know someone who is - you are Bambi on the Hwy 401.

[robertsailor1]

To be honest your probably in the worst position possible to be making this type of decision. You don't know anything about aircraft to begin with and you probably even know less about the type of aircraft that would suit you needs much less the value/resale of it.
Why don't you wait until you get your license and some time. Rent different aircraft and think carefully about what you really need in an aircraft. Maybe a decent 2 place aircraft would suit you better and when you need a 4 place you can rent it. I could go on but I'm sure you get my drift.

[FlyGy]

I've concluded that my first plane purchase is going to be one with older avionics. I'm considering an early '80s Saratoga, then spend an extra 40k upgrading the avionics and engine. I've learned through my research that I'd be way further ahead in doing that than I would be to spend that extra money in buying a more expensive plane that I'd still have to fix to my tastes.

[TeePeeCreeper]

I've concluded that my first plane purchase is going to be one with older avionics. I'm considering an early '80s Saratoga, then spend an extra 40k upgrading the avionics and engine. I've learned through my research that I'd be way further ahead in doing that than I would be to spend that extra money in buying a more expensive plane that I'd still have to fix to my tastes.

Once you overhaul the engine (do some more digging, its going to be way more than what any overhaul shop quotes you... Mounts, baffles, accessories etc, etc..)
Well I hate to break it to you but 4K left over won't leave much in terms of updating the panel....
Advice from someone who knows first hand... Take it or leave it.... As Robsailor said, and as the post I just quoted clearly indicates your limited (please take no offence) knowlege of what you might be getting into... Take a step back and take a breath... Your wallet will thank you down the road.
Regards,
TPC

[Deltawidget]

I've concluded that my first plane purchase is going to be one with older avionics. I'm considering an early '80s Saratoga, then spend an extra 40k upgrading the avionics and engine. I've learned through my research that I'd be way further ahead in doing that than I would be to spend that extra money in buying a more expensive plane that I'd still have to fix to my tastes.

I'll have to disagree with you entirely. No offence personally, but as others have said on here, you should buy the best plane upfront. They are not all lemons as you have suggested. A competent mechanic will be able to steer you in the right direction. If you have an AME or someone telling you to buy a project and upgrade everything, they are probably looking for work... You can blow through 40K in a heartbeat with certified aircraft. An overhauled Saratoga engine will run you 30K easily. A good, modern Garmin nav/com (430) would run you around 20-25K. Not trying to scare you but these are real quotes I've received recently.

I started off from scratch and relied a lot on comments from more knowledgeable people on here when i was first purchasing. Don't rush into ownership. The idea of airplane ownership is sexy but you can can blown out of the water very easily, especialy when you get into more complex types. I consider myself a pretty competent person but it took me a good 3 years of reading, and talking to people before i become comfortable with everything airplane ownership entails. Goodluck. And definetly listen to the above comments.

[photofly]

--

[CpnCrunch]

I've concluded that my first plane purchase is going to be one with older avionics. I'm considering an early '80s Saratoga, then spend an extra 40k upgrading the avionics and engine. I've learned through my research that I'd be way further ahead in doing that than I would be to spend that extra money in buying a more expensive plane that I'd still have to fix to my tastes.

You never got the money out of a plane that you put into it. It is almost always cheaper to buy a plane that someone else has upgraded than to do it yourself (unless, perhaps, you are an AME).

[robertsailor1]

As C/C says...

[straightpilot]

You never got the money out of a plane that you put into it

Now, that doesn't mean that you should never overhaul your engine
or install new avionics in it.

However, if you do, be prepared to fly it for at least 500 hours to amortize
your expense. The more you spend, the longer you need to fly it. A glass
panel might need 1000 hours flown on it before you can sell it without taking
a financial bath.

The above doesn't make sense to anyone here, but what the hell, it's
your money, spend it any way you want to.

[Big Pistons Forever]

As C/C says...

+ 2. Buy the best aircraft you can find it will almost always be the cheapest to own in the long run.

[FlyGy]

No offense taken folks, and I appreciate the knowledge shared by those who know better than I, it had just seemed the reasonable direction for me to take. I was looking at putting in an Aspen Evolution 2500 for the panel and that's about 25k, plus the installation, so I agree, I'll blow through that 40k real quick. The engine was a lower priority for an overhaul and thus a planned off in the future event. I'm not buying the plane to turn around and sell it for a profit. I plan to keep it for the remainder of my flying ability.

[straightpilot]

Very rough numbers:

Let's say you drop $40k on the aircraft. Using the rule of
thumb that it will only increase half that in value (which often
isn't true - there's no such thing as a $300k C150, regardless
of how much $$$ you drop on it).

So you're out $20k. Let's say you fly it for 500 hours before
you sell it. I might mention that the national average for private
aircraft is a whopping 35 hour per year, so that's going to take
500/35 = 14.3 years. Hope you can still get a medical that far
down the road.

Anyways, your additional cost per hour is now $20,000 / 500
or $40 per hour premium that you will pay for the next 500 hours
above and beyond all of your other fixed and variable costs.

If that's ok with you, go for it.

[Beefitarian]

Straightpilot's post makes me think if I buy an airplane it either has to be the one I want forever so I can fix it up or luck out finding it the way I want it or have it nearly given to me.

[Kilo-Kilo]

Are you paying cash for all this? Walk into a bank and say, "I want 80 grand for a car loan, only I want to substitute a plane for the car." You will have to own a home and have enough equity to make it happen. Planes are not good security in a bank's eyes.