Airplane blue book (value estimator)

FenderManDan · Post by **FenderManDan** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:42 am

Just looking for the tips of finding a most reasonable source of info for the used aircraft value research.

I am currently searching for the time builder a/c. Nothing fancy, C-150 is a no go can't physically fit. C-152 has a better seat travel so that is a bit better. Looking for the options beyond the Cessna A/C but also looking into something that will be easy to sell down the road.

I have seen dozen of interwebs on this topic, but I am not sure who is reputable. I will check out the COPA, since I have a membership there.

Thank you and blues skies,

Dan

Deltawidget · Post by **Deltawidget** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:21 am

The info you're looking for is extremely difficult to come by in Canada. There is a massive gap between the estimated "value" of an aircraft and what Canadian owners are willing to sell their aircraft for.

The biggest reason is because aircraft are priced in US dollars and most of those people bought aircraft back when the Canadian dollar was $0.70 vs the US. Now that the CAD has appreciated to par, current owners have taken a massive haircut on the Canadian dollar value of their aircraft

i.e. Owner buys in 1998 for $50,000 USD which at that time is $71,000 CAD. Current selling price of their aircraft is $40,000US, which is $40,000 CAD. So the owner's airplane value has fallen almost 50% in CAD terms. And most of these guys are under the impression airplanes appreciate in value (which they did at a certain point), not depreciate.

Long story short, keep scanning the COPA pages and Controller pages, you'll see which aircraft sit because they are priced too high. Keep doing your research and figure out what you feel is appropriate. If not too far below asking, give them a call and see if willing to negotiate. If they are, great, if not, move on and watch their aircraft sit a few more months...

I can tell you in general, that although Canadian dollar prices have fallen over the last 5 years somewhat to reflect the stronger CAD, they are still a good 10-20% too high in my opinion.

Beefitarian · Post by **Beefitarian** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:22 am

Sure you could buy a plane build some time get a thousand hours, maybe sell the plane to recoup some of the cost, but what about spending those bucks renting a twin?

Before someone tells me I can't rent a twin... http://www.twintimebuilding.com/ all I need it more money and I can do all sorts of crazy things. I'm not about to endorse my ideas but weeee!

iflyforpie · Post by **iflyforpie** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:45 pm

There has been a large correction in the market for Canadian aircraft recently. Partly because of the economy, and partly because there are more and newer options available to aircraft purchasers (new and Cessna restart aircraft, some of which are competitively priced used to legacy aircraft, professionally built homebuilt aircraft, LSA aircraft that can fit under Canadian AULA standards).

The listing prices haven't changed much, but I can tell you from experience the selling prices sure have. Anybody who bought an aircraft five years ago and was told 'it will never lose its value and might even appreciate' is in for a rude shock if they sell now.

COPA is a very good resource. Also Trade a Plane and Barnstormers.com. I just keep an eye on them and see which aircraft sell for what price, which aircraft don't, which aircraft have their prices lowered, etc. It is a lot of work, but gives you an idea using empirical data rather than what somebody thinks an aircraft is worth. Prices are market driven.

For an alternative aircraft, consider the Grumman Yankee. I believe Big Pistons Forever and Old Dog Flying each have one (or similar aircraft anyways). They are very economical (same engine as a 152), relatively cheap since not a ton were made and are limited value to flight schools, have a fairly simple airframe (bonded construction means no loose rivets), and are great little performers (much faster than a 152, very snappy handling).

Big Pistons Forever · Post by **Big Pistons Forever** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:13 pm

Beefitarian wrote:Sure you could buy a plane build some time get a thousand hours, maybe sell the plane to recoup some of the cost, but what about spending those bucks renting a twin?

Before someone tells me I can't rent a twin... http://www.twintimebuilding.com/ all I need it more money and I can do all sorts of crazy things. I'm not about to endorse my ideas but weeee!

Hate to break this to you Beef, but you still can't rent a twin. You link is to an outfit that lets you is sit in the left seat while the "insured" pilot sits in the right. This is NOT PIC. The PIC in the eyes of the insurance company and TC is the guy in the right seat, not you.

Colonel Sanders · Post by **Colonel Sanders** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:34 pm

This is NOT PIC

In the USA - where this outfit is - it is PIC. This is due to
an oddity in the FARs where more than one pilot can legally
log PIC in the same aircraft at the same time. From a Canadian
perspective it is completely bizarre, but in the USA it is
compliant with the FARs.

The particular arrangement these multi-engine time-building
outfits in the US:

One pilot in the left seat, under the hood. He is PIC under
the FARs because he is the sole manipulator of the flight
controls.

Another pilot is in the right seat. He logs PIC and is a required
crewmember because he is safety pilot.

Completely legal in the USA. Loggable multi-engine PIC time
for both pilots, according to the FAA. What TC thinks about it,
I have no clue.

PS I know a little bit about this. Many years ago, when many of
the people reading this were getting their nutrition through the nipple
of a bottle and their biggest problem was recurring diaper rash, I got
bored one winter and wanted to go south to escape the cold wx.
Most people would have gotten drunk on the beach, or on a cruise,
but I'm weird.

What I did was go down to Ray Walkwitz (long dead now) at
Titusville, FL and I flew 105 hours in 21 days in various Apaches
that he had. We flew to every airport in Florida that we could
find. It was a hoot. I got on a first-name basis with the lady
that rented the scooters in the empty parking lot outside the
Key West airport.

I certainly learned a lot about flying Apaches! The pilots that
were there were a fantastic bunch, too. I won't tell you about
how Ray Walkwitz checked out pilots in his Apaches to avoid
offending people. I remember he had a C170 that languished
unused, so Ray checked me out in it. Ray appreciated my landing
on one main tire and rolling it down the runway, with one wing
down

Ray was a big fan of the falling leaf. I wonder what
ever happened to his two boys? They would be in ther mid-20's now.

Titusville was a bizarre airport. You would land on the paved
runway, right next to a whole stream of parachutists landing
right beside you. It was unnerving at first, until you realized
that the motley parachutists were pro's and could land exactly
where they wanted, every time.

Beefitarian · Post by **Beefitarian** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:58 pm

Are you calling the guys that made the site liars or did you just not bother to click the link?

Questionable website author wrote:- NO SAFETY PILOT TIME -

WE ONLY OFFER ALL PIC MULTI ENGINE TIME BUILDING

Big Pistons Forever · Post by **Big Pistons Forever** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:08 pm

Beefitarian wrote:Are you calling the guys that made the site liars or did you just not bother to click the link?

Questionable website author wrote:- NO SAFETY PILOT TIME -

WE ONLY OFFER ALL PIC MULTI ENGINE TIME BUILDING

Actually I did click the link. The only part of the site that IMO is the following quote copied from the site:

Quote Please Note: Due to Insurance requirements there is no solo flight.
Unquote

How can you be PIC if you are not allowed to fly the aircraft without one of their pilots ?

Beefitarian · Post by **Beefitarian** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:12 pm

Hmm. They lie and the safety pilot does not log his time or logs as co-pilot?

Colonel Sanders · Post by **Colonel Sanders** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:20 pm

How can you be PIC if you are no allowed to fly the aircraft without one of their pilots?

Simple. You're under the hood and you're sole manipulator of the flight controls so you log PIC in accordance with the FARs.

They lie and the safety pilot does not log his time or logs as co-pilot?

Heh. I am sure the safety pilot logs PIC, too, at the same time, in accordance with the FARs. Everyone wants multi-PIC time, it seems.

Please understand that there are different countries in the world than Canada. Some of them might have different rules than Canada. This is true of the "United States of America".

Transport Canada Aviation has no authority in the USA. The FAA does. The CARs do not apply in the USA. The FARs apply in the USA, and the FARs allow for multiple pilots to log PIC at the same time, under certain circumstances. This is different from what you are used to, but that's ok, because it's a different country, and it's allowed to be.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:40 pm

FenderManDan · Post by **FenderManDan** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:38 am

And my thread got hijacked..... Boys, please focus.

Beef, after I am done with the bug smasher, I am eyeing something like this one
http://flightplanet.com/aircraft-for-sa ... __1274.php
and I will rent it to you.

So far I got one suggestion for the Grumman Yankee as an alternative to C-152. Does anybody have any other ideas. I think that another requirement is that the plane has to be aluminium skin, fabric will not do since the hangar space is scarce in my neck of the woods.

Thank you

Deltawidget · Post by **Deltawidget** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:13 am

The Piper Tomahawk is an option - a 2 seat Piper competitor to the 150/152 but has issues with I believe its the wingspar having a life limit (7000hrs if I recall correctly). The tomahawk was designed to force the PIC to make corrective inputs in stall/spin scenarios. It is not forgiving like the 152/172 or PA28's. There are lots of "horror" stories about the tomahawk's stall/spin characteristics, take these with a grain of salt. They were designed to train you, not to be an "easy flyer"

The beech skipper is also an option - but I think there are issues with parts?

If this is a career for you and want to impress prospective employers, you could consider the Cessna 140. Basically an older taildragging 152, although space might be a bit tight. But gets you using your feet.

For fancier options, The diamond DA20 is probably the most efficient certified airplane out there, but it lacks IFR certification. You can train for your instrument rating in it as the instrumentation is all there, but you cant actually fly in IMC conditions which I think is a real setback for your personal development. That said, you can get your rating in it, and rent an aircraft for a few hours to file for real flying in IMC for the experience.

I'm personally a fan of t he PA28's. They are more aircraft than the 150/152, burn more fuel, but a well equipped PA28 140 will take you all the way through your commcial rating.But the drawback with the PA28's is that a lot of experieneced pilots think they are "too" easy to fly and thus allow you to be a sloppy pilot without rigoriously learning good feet and recovery skills.

I guess the answer will depend on what you are looking for.

Deltawidget · Post by **Deltawidget** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:21 am

Nix the Beech skipper. Just did a quick search and only 312 were built and it was noted parts may be an issue.

Big Pistons Forever · Post by **Big Pistons Forever** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:03 am

Sorry for the hyjack. I own a Grumman AA1B which my I use as a run about. It is IMO a way better airplane than the C 152.

PRO's: A nice wide cabin, great visibility and delightfully light controls and parts are readily available. Also most were never used as trainers so low time un beat airframes are quite common (Mine, a 1974 AA1B, has 2120 hrs TT).

CON's: Not a lot of wing so it doesn't do well off really short fields or in hot and high conditions, especially the original straight AA1's with a true laminar flow wing (later AA1A/B/C have a more forgiving wing profile), Mickey Mouse fuel gauges that only work when the aircraft is not moving and not a huge number made so choice can be an issue.

robertsailor1 · Post by **robertsailor1** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:11 am

While I won't disagree that all aircraft do better when hangared I would not discount a fabric aircraft just because you'll be storing it outside for a few years. If the fabric is in decent shape it will take the out door environment plenty long enough for you to build time and resell it. If you have trouble fitting into a 150 then something like a Champ might be a good fit plus of course you'll learn that rudder pedals are not just for keeping your socks apart.

Beefitarian · Post by **Beefitarian** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:23 am

I went outside today. I didn't see any other countries.

There doesn't seem to be a very reliable "blue book" on anything anymore. You can sell things on the internet which goes quite a way in either direction on value sometimes. You might find that low priced item and sometimes you can find the guy that wants your exact model of something and is willing to make a high offer to get it.

YYZSaabGuy · Post by **YYZSaabGuy** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:53 am

Beefitarian wrote:I went outside today. I didn't see any other countries.

Would that Sarah Palin could make that statement.......

tractor driver · Post by **tractor driver** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:21 pm

Have you considered the brokers? That's what they do.
I've had good success in the past searching and finding what we wanted with the likes of C&S Enterprises, Henri Lauriault, Solly Capula (Aviation Unlimited), etc.
Should be worthwhile to give them a call and see what's out there.

FenderManDan · Post by **FenderManDan** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:34 pm

tractor driver wrote:Have you considered the brokers? That's what they do.
I've had good success in the past searching and finding what we wanted with the likes of C&S Enterprises, Henri Lauriault, Solly Capula (Aviation Unlimited), etc.
Should be worthwhile to give them a call and see what's out there.

I did talk to Isaac, Solly's son, so will keep an eye for me. They have one 172N with the timed out engine. I was thinking about it but the new engine and avionics, naaah don't want to go into that one.
I am meeting with him again this week to try Diamond DA20. I am not sure if I can fit into that one and not being certified for IFR, meaning it does not have lightning strike protection, does concern me. I'll check check out the other guys. If you have a contact info for the folks at C&S Enterprises, Henri Lauriault, please PM me.

Cheers,

Dan

Beefitarian · Post by **Beefitarian** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:37 pm

I presume you know http://www.controler.com and http://www.barnstormers.com

Beefitarian · Post by **Beefitarian** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:36 pm

Dan, did you find a nice plane?

FenderManDan · Post by **FenderManDan** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:14 am

Beefitarian wrote:Dan, did you find a nice plane?

Almost, however inspection did not go well, so nothin' yet. Birds from Quebec don't seem to be in good internal frame/wing spar condition.

No big deal, not in the huge hurry especially now since I read on the web that another 100LL refinery stopped production.

Might need to put a coins together with another 183 individuals and get into the JetA fuelled bird. The other option is to get something like that YouTube "flat spin survivor" British pilot flies. VW engine 3 galon/hr mogas, sweet....

Dan

Beefitarian · Post by **Beefitarian** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:24 pm

~sigh~ Seems like pretty soon only billionares will be flying.

If I had the cash I might look at a Pipestral Panthera hybrid, or something that runs on diesel probably a simple turbine. As it is now I'll have to continue to enjoy the occasional 172 rental as long as I can afford them. I need a nice laboratory to work on some new engines that run on something easy to find, maybe biodiesel.

Deltawidget · Post by **Deltawidget** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:28 pm

100LL has been on my mind as well...there are a few birds out there that sip non-ethanol mogas as low as 80 octane. But there arent that many places around the GTA that serve up mogas. Greenbank and guelph for sure. Have you consideredthose?

Dont feel too bad about walkin away from a prepurchase. It sucks but u probably saved urself from lotsa nasty snags

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