Just wondering if Centre can clear you to do a visual approach into an airport with a MF FSS where they have no radar coverage. I myself would have to say "no", based on the definition that a visual approach requires you to be 500' above the established vectoring altitude, which obviously in a non-radar environment, there is no vectoring. The funny thing is (at this particular airport) center has you on radar until only a few miles out and at a certain altitude before then they lose you. It's unfortunate because this airport can be very busy at times.
Anyways, I think in that situation the correct request from the pilot would be to ask for the contact.
Any comments...especially from you controllers?
Visual approach into MF airport with no radar coverage
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Sqwak 7600
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Big Bird Anonymous
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I attached the exerpt out of the AIP for reference.
I have received this view from Transport-Enforcement on this.
1)You are under ATC control if you are cleared to an MF airport...eg. CYPA...which has radar coverage but not TCA RADAR coverage, and can provide your own terrain seperation AND are in contact with the FSS. In this case the visual is an option considering the vis and wx.
2)If the airport has NO radar coverage (CYFO RCO) but has FSS/MF (CYWG FIC) you would have to request the contact considering vis and wx.
The question is, is CYPA considered a positive RADAR environment...the answer I have received is no, since the definition of RADAR vectoring implies positive control ie; TCA or Class A positive control. Therefore, the AIP content regarding the RADAR environment vectoring criteria does not apply in the CYPA FSS/MF, yet the visual approach rules do.
WAIVER! I don't proclaim to be right.
Visual Approach
A visual approach is an approach wherein an aircraft on an IFR flight plan (FP), operating in visual meteorological conditions (VMC) under the control of ATC and having ATC authorization, may proceed to the airport of destination.
In a radar environment, to gain operational advantages, the pilot or controller may
request a radar-vectored flight to conduct a visual approach clearance, provided that:
(a) the reported ceiling is at least 500 ft above the established minimum IFR
altitude and the ground visibility is at least 3 SM; and
(b) the pilot reports sighting the airport, controlled or uncontrolled, or at a
controlled aerodrome, the identified preceding aircraft from which visual
separation will be maintained.
The controller considers acceptance of a visual approach clearance as
acknowledgement that the pilot shall be responsible for:
(a) at controlled aerodromes, maintaining separation from traffic that the pilot is
instructed to follow;
(b) maintaining adequate wake turbulence separation;
(c) navigation to the final approach;
(d) adherence to published noise abatement procedures and compliance with any
restrictions that may apply to Class F airspace; and
(e) at uncontrolled aerodromes, maintaining appropriate separation from VFR
traffic that, in many cases, will not be known to ATC.
A visual approach is not an instrument approach procedure and therefore has no
missed approach segment. If a go-around is necessary for any reason, aircraft
operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/
instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft crews are required to remain
clear of clouds and are expected to complete a landing as soon as possible. If a landing
cannot be accomplished, the aircraft crew is required to remain clear of clouds and is
expected to contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. ATC separation
from other IFR aircraft will be maintained under these circumstances.
I have received this view from Transport-Enforcement on this.
1)You are under ATC control if you are cleared to an MF airport...eg. CYPA...which has radar coverage but not TCA RADAR coverage, and can provide your own terrain seperation AND are in contact with the FSS. In this case the visual is an option considering the vis and wx.
2)If the airport has NO radar coverage (CYFO RCO) but has FSS/MF (CYWG FIC) you would have to request the contact considering vis and wx.
The question is, is CYPA considered a positive RADAR environment...the answer I have received is no, since the definition of RADAR vectoring implies positive control ie; TCA or Class A positive control. Therefore, the AIP content regarding the RADAR environment vectoring criteria does not apply in the CYPA FSS/MF, yet the visual approach rules do.
WAIVER! I don't proclaim to be right.
Visual Approach
A visual approach is an approach wherein an aircraft on an IFR flight plan (FP), operating in visual meteorological conditions (VMC) under the control of ATC and having ATC authorization, may proceed to the airport of destination.
In a radar environment, to gain operational advantages, the pilot or controller may
request a radar-vectored flight to conduct a visual approach clearance, provided that:
(a) the reported ceiling is at least 500 ft above the established minimum IFR
altitude and the ground visibility is at least 3 SM; and
(b) the pilot reports sighting the airport, controlled or uncontrolled, or at a
controlled aerodrome, the identified preceding aircraft from which visual
separation will be maintained.
The controller considers acceptance of a visual approach clearance as
acknowledgement that the pilot shall be responsible for:
(a) at controlled aerodromes, maintaining separation from traffic that the pilot is
instructed to follow;
(b) maintaining adequate wake turbulence separation;
(c) navigation to the final approach;
(d) adherence to published noise abatement procedures and compliance with any
restrictions that may apply to Class F airspace; and
(e) at uncontrolled aerodromes, maintaining appropriate separation from VFR
traffic that, in many cases, will not be known to ATC.
A visual approach is not an instrument approach procedure and therefore has no
missed approach segment. If a go-around is necessary for any reason, aircraft
operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/
instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft crews are required to remain
clear of clouds and are expected to complete a landing as soon as possible. If a landing
cannot be accomplished, the aircraft crew is required to remain clear of clouds and is
expected to contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. ATC separation
from other IFR aircraft will be maintained under these circumstances.
Anti-antivaxxer
By definition the visual approach is only in a radar environment.
Yet I fly into more than one airport on a regular basis that are below radar coverage. When IFR in VMC, centre always clears us for a visual! I'm not sure if this is an oversight on their part. As a matter of fact, earlier this week we flew into XYZ airport. During our morning arrival, the controller cleared us for the "visual". Coming back later that day, another controller told us that he could not approve the visual because no radar coverage. Instead, we took the contact. We flew back there 2 days later, and sure enough were cleared for the visual during the morning and aft.
Cargo_guy
Yet I fly into more than one airport on a regular basis that are below radar coverage. When IFR in VMC, centre always clears us for a visual! I'm not sure if this is an oversight on their part. As a matter of fact, earlier this week we flew into XYZ airport. During our morning arrival, the controller cleared us for the "visual". Coming back later that day, another controller told us that he could not approve the visual because no radar coverage. Instead, we took the contact. We flew back there 2 days later, and sure enough were cleared for the visual during the morning and aft.
Cargo_guy
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Big Bird Anonymous
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Big bird. The quote above is your reference to the AIP earlier. It directly refers to a radar environment.Big Bird Anonymous wrote: Visual Approach
A visual approach is an approach wherein an aircraft on an IFR flight plan (FP), operating in visual meteorological conditions (VMC) under the control of ATC and having ATC authorization, may proceed to the airport of destination.
In a radar environment, to gain operational advantages, the pilot or controller may
request a radar-vectored flight to conduct a visual approach clearance, provided that: .....
Cargo_guy
In a radar environment, to gain operational advantages, the pilot or controller may
request a radar-vectored flight to conduct a visual approach clearance,
As the whole sentence says, "radar-vectored to conduct a visual approach". If there is no radar, ATC cannot vector the aircraft. This has nothing to do with whether we may clear you for a visual approach where you do not require our navigational assistance. (ie. you already have the field, or traffic to follow in sight.)
request a radar-vectored flight to conduct a visual approach clearance,
As the whole sentence says, "radar-vectored to conduct a visual approach". If there is no radar, ATC cannot vector the aircraft. This has nothing to do with whether we may clear you for a visual approach where you do not require our navigational assistance. (ie. you already have the field, or traffic to follow in sight.)
The second controller is incorrect. We do not need radar coverage to clear an aircraft for a visual approach.cargo_guy wrote:By definition the visual approach is only in a radar environment.
During our morning arrival, the controller cleared us for the "visual". Coming back later that day, another controller told us that he could not approve the visual because no radar coverage.
Cargo_guy
In the second example were you the only aircraft that would be on the approach? Most controllers aren't keen on giving multiple visual approaches without radar since we can't be sure if you are following the correct traffic.
From what I have seen from all over the place, is to be given a vis with no radar MF or ATF. The airspace should be clear from all IFR trafic and Center will do that.
Any controling body of an airport can give you the vis if you call the airport in sight. Somr controlers jump the gun and tell you to expect or even clear you ahead of time.
Just play smart If they are offering and you can take it then do so long as it is safe.
Cheers
Any controling body of an airport can give you the vis if you call the airport in sight. Somr controlers jump the gun and tell you to expect or even clear you ahead of time.
Just play smart If they are offering and you can take it then do so long as it is safe.
Cheers
