VMC roll on video

[pelmet]

It seems to happen over a period of 5 seconds or so. Note to self, if this occurs to me, in the time available, reduce power on the good engine. Better to crash wings level than in a spin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqmomTUVsAw

[looproll]

That's awful. Happened pretty fast.

[linecrew]

Looks like a Beech Queen Air.

You may want to warn folks in the title that they are about to watch some people die...just sayin'.

[Colonel Sanders]

if this occurs to me, in the time available, reduce power on the good engine

Sigh. What no one ever does, after an engine failure in a piston twin,
is lower the nose. You must lower the nose, to maintain airspeed. If
you do not maintain airspeed you do a Vmc demo and everyone dies.

Maintaining airspeed may require establishing and continuing a descent
until touchdown, given the aircraft's weight, density altitude, etc. This
touchdown may occur someplace you don't like, but it is always better
to touch down under control, than crash out of control.

It's too bad they didn't consider this: http://tinyurl.com/c6c5pz2

PS I didn't know there were any airworthy Queenaire's anywhere left
in the world. I haven't seen one in North America in a very long time.

[Cat Driver]

Installing one of these will make for more accurate control of angle of attack than relying on an airspeed indicator.

http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/

Maintaining angle of attack is the goal.

[iflyforpie]

Installing one of these will make for more accurate control of angle of attack than relying on an airspeed indicator.

http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/

Maintaining angle of attack is the goal.

Yes, but Vmc cares primarily about airspeed (1/2ϱV^2), not angle of attack. An aircraft producing full power from one engine below Vmc but also at a low angle of attack is still going to try and bite itself.

You can fly at a very low airspeed simply by reducing your angle of attack and flying a ballistic arc, but you can't do it very close to the ground. We still need airspeed to fly.

[Cat Driver]

Yes you are correct........but I go back to the basics which is first control yaw...........

[Doc]

Yes you are correct........but I go back to the basics which is first control yaw...........

Accomplished (or at the very least, aided) by a power reduction on the good engine, otherwise yaw will be uncontrollable below VMC with max power on the running engine...
A slight bank into the live engine also makes life a little easier....
On aircraft like the Apache, Travel Air and earlier Twin Comanches, an engine failure will almost always result in a descent just to stay above VMC. YMMV

[Northern Flyer]

if this occurs to me, in the time available, reduce power on the good engine

Sigh. What no one ever does, after an engine failure in a piston twin,
is lower the nose. You must lower the nose, to maintain airspeed. If
you do not maintain airspeed you do a Vmc demo and everyone dies.

Maintaining airspeed may require establishing and continuing a descent
until touchdown, given the aircraft's weight, density altitude, etc. This
touchdown may occur someplace you don't like, but it is always better
to touch down under control, than crash out of control.

It's too bad they didn't consider this: http://tinyurl.com/c6c5pz2

PS I didn't know there were any airworthy Queenaire's anywhere left
in the world. I haven't seen one in North America in a very long time.

Saw a wack of Queenaire's this fall in Minnesota. They were using them as an air attack platform for some fires we were working near Ely.

[CFR]

Very sad as it seems there may have been both time and altitude to work towards a better outcome.

As a newly minted multi-rated private pilot with a whopping 15 hours on type, I have seen this scenario before ... over and over in my head. To see an actual video of it and see how quickly it can unfold is chilling!

Maintaining airspeed may require establishing and continuing a descent until touchdown, given the aircraft's weight, density altitude, etc. This
touchdown may occur someplace you don't like, but it is always better to touch down under control, than crash out of control.
It's too bad they didn't consider this: http://tinyurl.com/c6c5pz2

I have told myself time and time again it is better to crash with style (under control), than plumet inverted! Should the time come, I hope I ignore the urge to avoid the ground at all costs, and make the right choice. Light twins do not have scads of power available and the numbers are critical. In the Seneca I fly, VMC is 80 mph with a Vyse of 105. While controllable above VMC, 105 is the sweet spot as it does not climb well (if at all) at anything other than 105 ... 100 or even 110 do not work well. I treat every pre-take off brief seriously and take the time to go over what I would do with an engine failure after take off given the conditions of the day. Both ends of the envelope are pretty clear, 2 on board with 1/2 tanks in the winter at our field elevation of 760 is probably doable, 4 on board with full tanks mid-summer is not so assured (I suspect the only choice would be to decide gear up or gear down!) It is all the combinations in between that require careful consideration.

The linked article is very interesting and I will play around with the concept during some hanger flying. As it says the mantra we are taught is mixture/props/throttles - forward, clean up drag, identify, verify, feather (or fix if time). My FTU consistantly hammered in the idea that you must mantain controlable airspeed even if you have to push the nose down to get it, and while 85 is controlable, it will not climb so either the nose must go down to get 105 or a decision to touch down straight ahead must be made.

While I am comfortable flying the A/C under normal conditions, the 6 seconds or so between rotating at 85 and Vyse seem to take a very LONG time.

And then there is the other end of the spectrum. The airplane I fly for fun is a 7ECA. I have practiced numerious forced approaches and off airport landings (including what parameters must be met to be able to do a turn back) such that I am pretty certain an engine failure on takeoff should only result in some walking to a phone.

often said but always true "learn from the mistakes of others as you'll not live long enough to make them all yourself"

[Doc]

While I am comfortable flying the A/C under normal conditions, the 6 seconds or so between rotating at 85 and Vyse seem to take a very LONG time.
[/i]

I can't think of a single reason your couldn't delay rotation till 95. It'll give you a wee bit of a "cushion". At least between your ears. You'll go from 85-80 if the fan stops in less than two "steamboats"! Give yourself the extra 10 knots. Even then, you're going to have to react pretty quick in a Seneca. The bad engine is on the same side as the leg doing NOTHING! Some folks slap the "dead" leg. I curl mine up under the seat and feather that same side pretty much as the leg comes back. Otherwise, with a Seneca/Apache/Travel Air/etc. you've become a noisy glider. Lower the nose, reduce power on the good one and land the puppy is pretty good advice. Brief yourself on departure for the scenario you're going to use (different at YYZ than short strips. DUH!) and stick to it. Got my 105 (?) I'm going, below that, have a plan, before you launch. Chances are EXCELLENT you'll NEVER have to use your plan.....if you have one.

[tons-o-fun]

PS I didn't know there were any airworthy Queenaire's anywhere left
in the world. I haven't seen one in North America in a very long time.

Saw one in CYSN this summer.

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/Arti ... chive=true

[iflyforpie]

That is interesting that Meatballl Multi Checklist Colonel Sanders but doesn't it incorporate TC's approved way of doing things anyways? When I was taught my multi I was taught below blue line I am going down, above blue line I am continuing.

Control

Control means control, like lower the nose and keep from stalling. It doesn't mean hold present attitude and watch the airspeed plummet to the red line.

Power

You've already taken care of it by keeping everything forward. Takeoff power is good for five minutes. Given a minute on the runway and 1000FPM after that, that is up to 4000' AGL that you can keep her firewalled. Why are we bringing power back when we haven't even got outside of the fence yet? Extra wear (which I honestly think is negligible) and extra noise are worth it for increasing my safety.

Drag

I don't have any problem leaving the gear down as long as I can use it. Heck, on my twin the difference the gear makes extended vs retracted is hardly any difference at all--but with the gear doors open you might as well just feather both props and be done with it.

Another thing I've seen (I wasn't taught this) is guys who yank the plane off at Vr and then get the gear up as quickly as they can. To me, this is nonsense. To use CFR's plane as an example, the 85 knot speed on your plane is the rotation speed, not the unstick (wheels off the ground) speed. If you pull back gently and allow the plane to fly smoothly off, it will create less drag than yanking it up and it will give your airspeed more time to build.

Then, I fly in ground effect with the wheels down to blue line. What drag regime are we in below Vy and Vyse? The induced drag regime. So what effect is pulling the gear up going to have on our total drag vs just staying above (or even on) the runway? Virtually none. What effect is a gear stuck halfway between extended and retracted going to have on our drag? It's probably going to make it worse as we struggle up to Vyse. Also, there is the psychological effect, gear going up, I am going flying no matter what. Staying in ground effect reduces our induced drag, gets us to Vyse faster, and keeps us in the perfect place to close throttles and plunk it back down should something happen.

There's flaps in there too, and we can't ignore them if we are going to continue to fly the aircraft. Lots of experience flying underpowered and heavily loaded single engine planes out of high DA fields has proven to me the wisdom of 'beeping' the flaps up if you can, rather than retracting in stages or completely. You don't need any more sinking feeling that will cause you to pull back on the stick, making things worse.

Identify.

By yaw or dead foot. Nothing wrong in your checklist. Next.

Verify.

All we are doing is making sure we've got the right (or left) engine. Doing it by throttle would take an extra second. Being aware of the decelerating feeling as a sign of engine failure and the yaw direction does it for me. Next?

Feather.

Well duh, if we don't we are going down.

Secure. At safe altitude and airspeed, not right after feather.

[Doc]

iflyforpie, you've never actually had an engine go south on you, have you?
Your comment about "TC's approved way of doing things...." sort of gave you away.
You have a failure shortly after rotation on a light twin, you shouldn't be really concerned about TC's feelings. Very few of them have had a low altitude failure either.
Now, before you jump all over me for being an uncaring rogue, I've had several engines go south. I couldn't give a rat's ass about TC's "approved way of doing things...."
TC's safety record is something to be anything but proud of, BTW.
The fact that you "don't have any problem leaving the gear down...." scares the crap out of me. On one hand, you care about TC's "approved method of doing things..." and in the next breath you advocate leaving the gear down? News flash for ya. Leave the gear down, and you WILL be using it.
CONTROL does NOT mean "lowering the nose to prevent stalling..." it means do whatever is necessary to fly the airplane successfully. BTW, if you're anywhere near stall speed, you're already on your back, Stall speed is well below VMC. We are talking losing an engine pretty much on rotation? Why would you necessarily "lower the nose..."?
Your comment "I fly in ground affect with the wheels down till blue line......" Try that on a "black hole" departure and you'll be pulling pine trees out of your ass!
Lets keep in mind this guy has 15 hours in twins. Therefore....KISS!

[CFR]

While I am comfortable flying the A/C under normal conditions, the 6 seconds or so between rotating at 85 and Vyse seem to take a very LONG time.
[/i]

I can't think of a single reason your couldn't delay rotation till 95. It'll give you a wee bit of a "cushion". At least between your ears. You'll go from 85-80 if the fan stops in less than two "steamboats"! Give yourself the extra 10 knots. Even then, you're going to have to react pretty quick in a Seneca. The bad engine is on the same side as the leg doing NOTHING! Some folks slap the "dead" leg. I curl mine up under the seat and feather that same side pretty much as the leg comes back. Otherwise, with a Seneca/Apache/Travel Air/etc. you've become a noisy glider. Lower the nose, reduce power on the good one and land the puppy is pretty good advice. Brief yourself on departure for the scenario you're going to use (different at YYZ than short strips. DUH!) and stick to it. Got my 105 (?) I'm going, below that, have a plan, before you launch. Chances are EXCELLENT you'll NEVER have to use your plan.....if you have one.

Oops I quoted the book numbers as Vr being 85 but in reality rotating (not yanking) at 85 ends up around 95 leaving the ground.

WRT gear, what I was taught is gear stays down as long as you can use the runway that's left, if not gear up. Normal takeoff in the Seneca is 0 flaps.

We use "dead leg, dead engine" memory jog and slap the dead leg; curling the leg under seems like a good idea as your hands should be pretty busy at the time!

The other thing hammered home is that as counter intuitive as it may seem, you may indeed have to reduce power on the good engine to maintain control.

I have a printed brief within my checklist that I go through every time, out loud (seems it sticks in my head better) adapted to the days conditions. I have told myself that I will fly the brief, and your comment to "stick to it" reinforces my belief.

"noisy glider" - I work (worked, I have retired) with Air Force (RCAF now) pilots and of course they all had good advice for me on engine failures including "You're still going to crash ... just further away!"

J

[iflyforpie]

iflyforpie, you've never actually had an engine go south on you, have you?
Your comment about "TC's approved way of doing things...." sort of gave you away.

And your comment gave away that you didn't actually read my post, you just skimmed it, saw 'TC's way of doing things' and got pigheaded.

Yes, I have had an engine go south on me, in both a single and a twin.

The fact that you "don't have any problem leaving the gear down...." scares the crap out of me. On one hand, you care about TC's "approved method of doing things..." and in the next breath you advocate leaving the gear down? News flash for ya. Leave the gear down, and you WILL be using it.

No sh!t Doc. I said that right here....

I don't have any problem leaving the gear down as long as I can use it.

And Colonel Sanders said it right here.

If an engine fails at very low altitude, before you move your right hand from the throttles to the gear selector, push the nose down to maintain airspeed, and simply pull both throttles back and land on the remaining runway. If you have lots of runway left, you should be able to land with no damage to the airframe. The gear is still down, remember? If you took off from a short runway your landing might not be pretty, but you and your passengers will do better than if you had elected to continue the takeoff.

Which means if I have runway in front of me and am below blueline. You just praised a Perimeter crew for doing that exact thing in another thread!

CONTROL does NOT mean "lowering the nose to prevent stalling..." it means do whatever is necessary to fly the airplane successfully.

And neither is that what I said.

Control means control, like lower the nose and keep from stalling.

We are talking losing an engine pretty much on rotation? Why would you necessarily "lower the nose..."?

Pretty much on rotation... in a heavy underpowered piston single below blue line? You bet I am going to lower the nose and ride it out on the ground! In the air? You just lost most (or all) of your excess power. The nose is coming down one way or another...

Your comment "I fly in ground affect with the wheels down till blue line......" Try that on a "black hole" departure and you'll be pulling pine trees out of your ass!

Obstacle clearance is based on crossing the threshold at 35 feet and maintaining 200feet per nautical mile with obstacle clearance assessed at 154ft/nm. If you are pulling pine needles out of your ass, you shouldn't be there, because you shouldn't be establishing a positive rate of climb until blue line. That's all I am talking about, just allowing the aircraft to accelerate to a safe speed... that is airmanship 101.

Or do you really think you have a better chance below Vyse, 100 feet above the runway with the gear up?

[Doc]

I guess I've been doing it all wrong. You should come give some dual.

[iflyforpie]

You do know All in the Family was a comedy... right?

[Doc]

because you shouldn't be establishing a positive rate of climb until blue line.

Interesting. I don't happen to agree. At all.

[Doc]

You do know All in the Family was a comedy... right?

I like "Married with Children" better...

[iflyforpie]

Interesting. I don't happen to agree. At all.

That's not what it sounds like here...

I can't think of a single reason your couldn't delay rotation till 95. It'll give you a wee bit of a "cushion"

Cushion for what? To be closer to Vyse maybe? Pulling back to unstick sounds like it would be bang on 105 by the time you got a positive rate...

Otherwise, with a Seneca/Apache/Travel Air/etc. you've become a noisy glider. Lower the nose, reduce power on the good one and land the puppy is pretty good advice.

Got my 105 (?)[Vyse for a Seneca] I'm going, below that, have a plan, before you launch.

[cdnpilot77]

Pie, it sounds more like you are trying to set blanket rules instead of acknowledging the uniqueness of every takeoff with aircraft, weight, balance, rwy conditions, wind, precip ceiling etc etc. All factors that must be considered for a safe outcome.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Personally while I have to teach the "TC Approved" method so my students will pass their ride I don't follow it when I fly myself. Instead I treat piston twin takeoffs like takeoffs on transport category aircraft. The first part of the takeoff is the "Stop" part when the engine fails and the second part is the "Go" part. The transition from stop to go is when the aircraft is accelerating through blueline and has a positive rate of climb (Note I make all takeoffs flaps up).

I have my hands on the throttles until I get the blueline/positive rate and then go to the gear handle to raise the gear and then immediately put my hand on the prop levers. If my hand is on the throttle and the engine fails I just pull both back and land/stop straight ahead. If my hands are on the prop levers then we are going. Nose down to a pitch attitiude of about 5 degs up, Identify with yaw, visually or step on the bug if IMC, remember the aircraft nose is just like the nose on your dog, it will always point to trouble. Then verify by pulling the prop back to just before the feather gate, as you will know right away if you are pulling back the RPM of the good engine and then go right to feather. Now just concentrate on flying the aircraft away from the ground. If the aircraft is at that point not indicating a positive rate of climb and holding blueline then close both throttles and land straight ahead. I also delay rotation by 10 knots or so from the book value.

The only piston twin I regularly fly is a Cessna 340 with VG's. It has a blue line of 100 kts. I rotate at 95 and 100 knots and positive rate occur pretty much simultaneously and as soon as the gear is selected up I am confident I could fly the aircraft away. The in between period of uncertainty is only a few seconds.

I think the idea to leave the gear down until "insufficent" runway is a FTUism that should be banished. You want to get the aircraft cleaned up and climbing as soon as you can. Altitude is your friend. You always have the option of closing both throttles but the whole point of having two engines is so you don't have to crash if you suffer an engine failure, the higher up you are the better your chances to fly away. For that reason a blueline climb to 400 feet is a good idea, at that point you can accelerate to normal climb speed and reduce to climb power. I have seen some operators do a blueline climb to 1000 feet but to my mind that is not necessary and is hard on the engines.

[lownslow]

Then verify by pulling the prop back to just before the feather gate, as you will know right away if you are pulling back the RPM of the good engine...

How do you know whether or not you've pulled the correct prop control? Change in yaw? Listen carefully for a change in engine/propeller noise?

LnS.

**Edited to add: I'm not trying to be a smartass here, I'm legitimately curious.**

[Doc]

Most (all of mine, BTW) engine failures on piston engines occur during a power change. The real moment of "truth" is the first power reduction, ie.,, take off power to climb.
If take off power is going to cause the engine to "calf" it'll do so long before you rotate.
Once she's all cleaned up and climbing, don't be in a mad dash to go to climb power till you have some real estate in your rear view.