Buying a Cessna 150/152

[invertedattitude]

Few people toying around with the idea of buying a 150/152 here at work.

Anyone with experience owning one of these puppies care to chime in on what to look for?

We are looking for an IFR certified aircraft.

Also anyone with experience recently importing an airplane from the US?

Also, whats the general feeling on not hangering such an aircraft year-round?

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum.

[tyndall]

Very cramped, low useful load. Most are flying overweight with two people. IFR only worsens the problem.

Lot of them in Canada. Cost of import plus fixing all the "undocumented" mods and poor maintenance, typical of private US planes, drives up the price to more than its worth.

Many, if not most, are kept outside. Hard on the paint and its even more important to fly it regularly to help dry it out. Not a big deal.

[Colonel Sanders]

um, a 150/152 is really not the best IFR airplane. You might
be able to do some holds and approaches at your airport at
70 knots - ATC is going to hate you - but it doesn't have the
fuel for any reasonable alternates, and even a breath of headwind
means you have to replan.

Apart from that ... watch for internal corrosion (cam lobes/lifters)
on the O-235 Lyc in the 152, and watch for sticking valves on the
O-200 in the 150.

Many of them have incredible hours from flight training, and are
really thrashed after all these decades.

Free advice: don't spend money installing avionics. You will
take a bath. Buy one with the radios you want, already in it.

Import can be easy or hell. If you know what you are doing,
you will reject the problem aircraft and not even try to import
the nightmares. Watch out for major damage repairs (walk away)
and 337's without STC's (walk away). The FAA will give you
the 337's electronically for $10.

[invertedattitude]

Thanks guys.

Personally, I'm only planning on flying it VFR mostly... but a counterparts wants IFR... I think it best personally we stick to VFR... price being a deciding factor.

From what I've read the 0-200 has a TBO of 1800 hours?

Anyone know what the going rate for a complete rebuild is?

[Colonel Sanders]

the 0-200 has a TBO of 1800 hours?

Totally irrelevant, both practically and from a regulatory standpoint -
see CAR 625 App C.

Far more important than HOURS since major overhaul, is
YEARS since major overhaul.

An engine with one year since major and 1000 hours is
going to be in very nice condition.

An engine wth 50 years since major and 100 hours is
going to be a mess.

Another thing you want to see is hours flown in the
last year. If it hasn't flown in 5 years, run away. If
it's flown 100 hours in the last year, it's probably in
pretty good shape.

Don't buy an aircraft then overhaul the engine. You
will never get your money out of it unless you fly it
for 1000 hours. And don't forget all the extras
when you do an overhaul - exhaust, mount, biscuits,
baffles, controls, etc. That can add up to $5k right there.

[invertedattitude]

Thanks for all that info.

There's plenty of 150's/152's around.

It seems anything within driving distance to look at is drastically overpriced, anything that's the "right" price is in the other side of the continent... not that I would mind a 5 day cross country trip... just maybe not doing it in an airplane I'm rather unfamiliar with.

I don't know how anyone buys airplanes... I mean I'm talking a $30,000 machine split between 3-4 people and it seems there's nothing but risk involved.

Preferably I'd like to find something with around 4000-5000 TT along with an engine with around 800-1000 SMOH.

Costs of operation are DRASTICALLY less than renting from our local club ($170/hr for a 172N $190/hr for a C172S)

I just want to enjoy flying if that's even possible anymore.

[Beefitarian]

Costs of operation are DRASTICALLY less than renting from our local club ($170/hr for a 172N $190/hr for a C172S)

Until you need to buy a new engine.

I just want to enjoy flying if that's even possible anymore.

I know how you feel. I'm just resigned to the fact that we have to pay to play.

[Colonel Sanders]

we have to pay to play

I learned that when I was a teenager, but that didn't stop me from wanting some!

[Posthumane]

Costs of operation are DRASTICALLY less than renting from our local club ($170/hr for a 172N $190/hr for a C172S)

I'm sure it looks that way on paper (it always does) and it certainly can be when sharing between a few people, but just be aware that your costs may be a lot higher than anticipated when you have to do some unexpected maintenance/repairs. Not trying to pull you away from buying an aircraft (though maybe from buying a 150/152) but lots of other people will probably tell you the same thing. I found that in order to break even compared to the local club I would have to fly over 100 hours per year, and that's with a relatively cheap airplane (old 172 with no avionics worth mentioning) and doing as much work myself as I can.

[tyndall]

I mean I'm talking a $30,000 machine split between 3-4 people and it seems there's nothing but risk involved.

Preferably I'd like to find something with around 4000-5000 TT along with an engine with around 800-1000 SMOH.

I thought you wanted a 150/152?

With the plane market in the shitter for the last few years I wouldn't spend a dime over $20K for one. For $30K I could get a decent 172, Cherokee, Musketeer or Traveler. If you have that much money and want a 150, buy a runout for $15K and get a mechanic to do a field overhaul for about $10K

[Big Pistons Forever]

Thanks for all that info.

There's plenty of 150's/152's around.

It seems anything within driving distance to look at is drastically overpriced, anything that's the "right" price is in the other side of the continent... not that I would mind a 5 day cross country trip... just maybe not doing it in an airplane I'm rather unfamiliar with.

I don't know how anyone buys airplanes... I mean I'm talking a $30,000 machine split between 3-4 people and it seems there's nothing but risk involved.

Preferably I'd like to find something with around 4000-5000 TT along with an engine with around 800-1000 SMOH.

Costs of operation are DRASTICALLY less than renting from our local club ($170/hr for a 172N $190/hr for a C172S)

I just want to enjoy flying if that's even possible anymore.

Cost could be drastically less but they could also be drastically more.

The other side of the coin is the story of a fellow I met once that bought a beater C 150 with an on condition engine to use to build up his time. He bought it for "only" 18 K but after only 20 hours the engine started running very roughly. When the AME pulled the screen it was full of metal, the engine was toast. His AME found another high time engine but the engine mount was cracked and the carb air box needed a repair etc etc. It cost him 10 K to get back in the air, then his radio died, the radio shop said it was too old to repair. He got another unit off E-bay but it never worked, then he lucked out and found a working unit for $1000 but he lost a month of summer flying screwing around, then he needed a new shimmy damper, then new brake discs, then a new elevator trim cable.........He finally finished his CPL and then tried to sell his airplane. A year later it was still for sale and he was desperate so he took a low ball 12 K just to get some money back. Bottom line when all his costs were totaled each hour he flew the aircraft coat him 275 $ an hour plus what he paid for his instructor........

[Beefitarian]

Ok that makes me wonder, how much is a good rebuilt engine? It's the only way to know what you have for certain.

I find an abandoned 180, buy it cheap take it apart. Hire a good AME to oversee it and sign off. Clean and grease any moving part that are good. Replace any that are not. If you can keep the cost under $100 000, you should profit on the plane when you sell it. Do that every couple of years and you might have a decent hobby that pays for it's self.

Oh well great idea, I'll be here on the couch if you need any more tips like that.

[Inverted2]

Very cramped, low useful load. Most are flying overweight with two people. IFR only worsens the problem.

Lot of them in Canada. Cost of import plus fixing all the "undocumented" mods and poor maintenance, typical of private US planes, drives up the price to more than its worth.

Many, if not most, are kept outside. Hard on the paint and its even more important to fly it regularly to help dry it out. Not a big deal.

What he said. If you get one with a bad engine, it's about 20 grand to "0" time the engine. Lots of junk sitting around. It's a buyers market now with the economy so bad. Lots of bigger planes for sale cheap too because the owners can't afford to feed them 100LL anymore.

[Beefitarian]

I was just looking at controller.com there were a couple of 310s for under 40K. They have two engines to break. 8 years ago you couldn't find a 172 for that cheap.

Some 150s are approaching disposable prices. 20k for new engine, 15 for replacement plane.

[lupin]

I own and operate a Cessna 150. The engine has approx 140 hours, and the aircraft is owned outright (ie no payments).

As for fixed operating costs,
Insurance is approx 1100$/annum,
Annual ends up costing me between 200-650$ year (keep in mind that I am an AME and do my own maintenance, if you find an AME that will do your annual for 300$, he is pencil-wiping it as that barely covers ELT recert and engine oil and filters)
Nav Canada fees are 115$
Parking is 500$/annum

My aircraft has 2750 hours TT, new radio,transponder and GPS (SL-40 ,GTX327 and garmin 495). With the engine freshly overhauled, if I were to put it on the market, I would ask for approx 36k. At that price you can find many cheaper planes but this one has a fresh paint, interior, avionics and engine.

If you have further questions, feel free to ask.

Buying a Cessna 310 would make your local AME very wealthy.

[RFlyer]

The other side of the coin is the story of a fellow I met once that bought a beater C 150 with an on condition engine to use to build up his time. He bought it for "only" 18 K but after only 20 hours the engine started running very roughly. When the AME pulled the screen it was full of metal, the engine was toast. His AME found another high time engine but the engine mount was cracked and the carb air box needed a repair etc etc. It cost him 10 K to get back in the air, then his radio died, the radio shop said it was too old to repair. He got another unit off E-bay but it never worked, then he lucked out and found a working unit for $1000 but he lost a month of summer flying screwing around, then he needed a new shimmy damper, then new brake discs, then a new elevator trim cable.........He finally finished his CPL and then tried to sell his airplane. A year later it was still for sale and he was desperate so he took a low ball 12 K just to get some money back. Bottom line when all his costs were totaled each hour he flew the aircraft coat him 275 $ an hour plus what he paid for his instructor........

So how many of those failures would a properly-done PPI have found? Seems like he couldn't have had one done, or if he did, he chose to ignore some of the findings.

[co-joe]

I'd just like to second the suggestion that a 150 doesn't need anything IFR at all. You need a Com, a transponder and a GPS and that can be a good hand held or portable. You could get one with an ADF but they are heavy and you already have very little useful load. If you can stay away from Class C you really don't need the transponder either. 2 radios a GPS and a map.

I liked the O-200 dunno anything about the other one. We ran it on hi octane Auto gas which really keeps the cost down. Just have to be a little more judicial with carb heat. I found the 150 way more fun than the 172. Like a go cart instead of a VW Bug...and so easy to fly.

[invertedattitude]

Thanks for all the info folks.

Our initial thought now is 4 people, buying a 150 in great shape with engine time left 1000SMOH or less for under 25k with good avionics. Also ordering from the states there are some amazing deals.

I can't find a list of costs of importation outside of tax obviously, and $100-$200 for various documentation with TC.

If four guys can't affordable operate a 150 then nobody should own an airplane.

We are being very careful about what to buy

[higharctic]

Edit

[invertedattitude]

Now that's the kind of post that is encouraging!

I will definately take you up on the information offer. We've found quite a few options out there now it's just finding the right one

Thanks.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The other side of the coin is the story of a fellow I met once that bought a beater C 150 with an on condition engine to use to build up his time. He bought it for "only" 18 K but after only 20 hours the engine started running very roughly. When the AME pulled the screen it was full of metal, the engine was toast. His AME found another high time engine but the engine mount was cracked and the carb air box needed a repair etc etc. It cost him 10 K to get back in the air, then his radio died, the radio shop said it was too old to repair. He got another unit off E-bay but it never worked, then he lucked out and found a working unit for $1000 but he lost a month of summer flying screwing around, then he needed a new shimmy damper, then new brake discs, then a new elevator trim cable.........He finally finished his CPL and then tried to sell his airplane. A year later it was still for sale and he was desperate so he took a low ball 12 K just to get some money back. Bottom line when all his costs were totaled each hour he flew the aircraft coat him 275 $ an hour plus what he paid for his instructor........

So how many of those failures would a properly-done PPI have found? Seems like he couldn't have had one done, or if he did, he chose to ignore some of the findings.

He had a what IMO was a "good" PPI. The assessment was that for an on condition older C 150 it was in reasonable condition. The engine was just bad luck because the engine had good compression and no obvious signs of problems. But the reality is a high time or on condition engine could go for a long time or it could be all used up. One of the biggest problems is almost all private aircraft do not get used enough and so corrosion related problems can be significant. Low time is no guarantee of a good engine if it hasn't been flown regularly. Lycoming says that an aircraft has to be flown at a minimum of once per week to achieve full engine life. All the other systems suffer when the aircraft sits as well.

I have owned 5 aircraft (the first was a 1969 C 150) and have had a positive ownership experience with all of them. But I had a good bit of experience in aviation before I bought my first aircraft and I did a lot of research. I am not anti ownership quite the opposite, but I would be very cautious taking any "advice" from someone who has never owned an aircraft and I would make the categorical statement that on average individual ownership will never be cheaper than renting for the average person. If the reason you are buying an aircraft is solely so you can have "cheaper" flying then my advice is proceed with care. If you want to own an aircraft for all the practical benefits then I say do your homework and enjoy the freedom of having your own wings.

For most private pilots I think a 2 person partnership is the best way to go.

[higharctic]

Edit

[invertedattitude]

thanks BPF and higharctic.

All of this information is all being considered... the decision to buy an airplane is done. It's just which one to buy, and to be as cautious as possible.

[Beefitarian]

Sorry if I sound like Debbie downer. Hope for the best but plan for the worst is all I am trying to say. Prices seem to still be going down on small planes.

[Pavese]

Well, let me pipe up here with my two cents worth.

Inverted, you're looking for what is in my hanger (and not for sale thank you!), a '79 152 with 6k hours & about 700 SMOH, good paint, typical Cessna interior, and in good running order so they are out there. Imported from the states. This was a friend of a friend deal so less risk than a stranger. Price was about what you're thinking and for a few partners a solid 152 would be a good, economical setup although if you're taller than 6-4" or "heavy" it'd be a bit cramped.

One thing to keep in mind when you're doing the sums compared to renting, what put us over the top was having the same A/C available when you want it and knowing who's been flying it and who's been looking after it. One of the intangible things you can't put a price on.

Anyhow, we did a full annual as a pre-buy with someone who hadn't seen the plane before, the seller fixed the pricy things and we took care of the niggles and we haven't had an annual over $1k including snags. Your AME will bring it up to their expectations on the first annual. Upkeep has been about what you'd expect for a simple aircraft, often some little thing but our AME is looking out for us and keeps us involved in the MX. Highly recommend owner assisted annuals, get to know your plane and your AME.

For importing, like someone said, stay away from something that has had equipment or mods done by 337 because they will just have to be undone at your expense unless they're backed by an STC. Shouldn't be a problem with a simple aircraft like a 150/152, not too many owners grafting big buck avionics & toys etc. into these planes. There's an AME who's picking up the DAR (importation) in our area and I'm sure he will not be nearly as expensive as what it cost us (CBAA rates....) so even better. There are a few logistics to closing the deal and flying home but the leg work saves $ and gives access to more aircraft too. Get your US annual/pre-buy signed off as an import C of A inspection and you'll avoid another (annual level or more) inspection when you get here. The COPA guide and EAA were invaluable resources.

If it's a USA plane check for the rudder stop AD, they can placard against spins (zero cost) but we have to have the mod kit. Not a big deal but there's a cost. Look at the shimmy dampener, a Lord one is good and the Cessna one seems to need periodic service to control the wiggles. Check that the strut assy is tight and that the steering rods are not worn and sloppy, they're not super expensive but a bear to replace. 6000 hours is probably time. Check the steering rod boots and the cowl seals. MacFarlane has both and is a good source of aftermarket PMA parts for Cessnas. Look for the prop AD on 152s, should have been complied with but might have slipped by, it's a crack inspection. Check the age of the firewall forward hoses, they're time limited.

BTW, if you find a nice 152 with a not so good engine I know where you can put your hands on a 152 with a low/mid engine that was run commercially and that I'd trust. The A/C was written off by storm damage. PM me for more, it's not far from you.

Good luck and keep us posted.

D