C208 Amphib Info

[SarahLovesSeaplanes]

I'm hoping to get some real world info from actual Amphib Caravan pilots. Please don't turn this into a Caravan vs Otter vs Beaver etc debate my company has already made the decision to buy the Van. I just want to learn as much as possible before it shows up. I have some time in the Van on wheels.

I understand it's faily underpowered. How many adult males with 50lbs of luggage each can it carry off the pavement / off of water with 1.5 hours of fuel (not counting the pilot)?

What are the main maintenance and corrosion issues to watch out for in salt water operations?

Tips / tricks etc to better handling of the Caravan?

What's the max wave height / swell that it can handle at gross weight?

Anything other useful knowledge about the C208 Ampib?

[angry inch]

HI Sarah.

Superdave made an excellent Caravan related post a few years back. You should give it a read. I flew the 'Van on straight floats & loved it. I have plenty of experience on other Amphibs & they all lack performance compared to being on straight floats. Like any other aircraft, you just need to know the limitations... I'd take an amphib Caravan any day.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=18993&view=next

Also, maybe try to talk to the guys at Seair. They have plenty of experience with the Amphib Caravan.

Good Luck!

[Meatservo]

I have a thousand or so hours on one of those from ten years or so ago. I can't recall the empty weight of one exactly, but I think it was somewhere around 5700 pounds. The gross is 8360, so I'm guessing you could carry about eight 200 pound guys with 1.5 hours of fuel. I'm using 256 pounds/person (incl. bags), fuel burn of 400lb/hour. I remember the math would work out very much the same for a Caravan as for a Turbo-Otter weight-wise, if they are both on Amphibs.

Can't comment much about swell height, as I only flew the Caravan on inland waters. It does land at a higher speed than DeHavilland planes and the tail is very close to the water in the touchdown attitude, but beyond that I shouldn't comment because I've never tried one on the coast.

I remember the Caravan being a friendly type of floatplane, no real tricks to learn. It got on the step pretty briskly but would run along on the step for a while longer than I was used to on Otters. I don't actually remember thinking it was underpowered. It was actually a pretty good plane. It was nice and quiet in the air and a smooth ride.

A couple of things I didn't like: The water rudder handle is in a spot where, if you don't have the optional bulkhead, the guy sitting behind you can kick it and cause the rudders to fall in flight. The plane flies kind of funny when the rudders are down. Not really a big deal. The rear spreader bar is actually an "I" shaped beam with sheet metal fairings and if this gets submerged, water runs into the float inside the fairing. In fairness, the spreader is only going to be in the water if you're overloading. The plane didn't sail very nicely: it has a tendency to turn its side to the wind rather than pointing into it, but on a turbine-powered floatplane on the coast, you probably aren't going to a lot of beaches or sailing much for any other reason.

It's much easier to dock than an Otter. Overall I kind of liked it.

[geodoc]

Just ferried one on amphibs from Wipaire to Vancouver last week.

Empty weight: 5485 lb. (no boots or WX radar, had a GNS530 & MX20, air con., depth gage & extended baggage, otherwise stock as a stove.

Cruise @ 145 kt. indicated - 150 true @ 340 lb./ hr. (~ 50 us Gal./ hr.)

It was me + 1 and full fuel so starting out was about a hunded # shy of 8360 gross wt.

And for amusement, here's the route:

http://runwayfinder.com/?loc=KSGS;KMHE; ... R&view=vfr

Caravan likes?

Fast!

Nice panel, nav equipment

Terrific ventilation

Roomy

lots of light in the cabin

Dislikes:

Heavy controls

Water-loving compared to the Otter

Over-wing re-fueling a PITA at the dock

Delicate water rudder attach - watch out backing it up.

1-float out of the water for X-wind T/O not so easy with its spoiler assisted roll control

[Mr. North]

+1 to the above posters. The Caravan is a surprisingly fun machine to fly on floats. It's not so quick out of the water but it cruises fast and is in general very forgiving.

Super Dave's post in the linked thread is full of valuable information.

340-350 lbs/hour is a good solid number for fuel burn.

A few more things to consider:

It doesn't take to big chop like the otter. You have to really baby it in the swells if not avoid it altogether.

With the exhaust on the right it has a tendency to turn left on the water. Use this to your advantage. Don't enter a docking situation where your only out is a sharp right turn. ...you won't make it! If it looks like you're going to bungle the docking, put it in reverse and back out, turn around, and try again. The turbine is there to make your job easier! Don't ever feel like you're committed.

Before exiting the aircraft on the water: Fuel Selectors Off!!! The smallest fuel imbalance will turn into a very large imbalance if the fuel selectors are left open. It doesn't take very long for the fuel to drain from one wing to the other. It's a simple mistake but you sure pay for it! Taking the van off the water with more then a 200 lbs imbalance is a handful that can quickly become dangerous. If you get caught with an excessive imbalance I heard of one guy doing tight donuts on the lake, slowly draining the heavy wing into the other. It apparently worked after some time but I've never been in such a situation where I needed to test this theory myself.

As others have mentioned, mind the water rudders. It's good practice to pull them up whenever you enter reverse. If backing onto a beach, make sure that your rudders are not only up, but centered. If they're off to the side and you don't come straight back onto the beach, it doesn't take much for them to get caught in the sand, pinned, and snap the springs. If you do lots of beaching it's bound to happen. You won't feel them break at first but you'll come to know the feeling after you pop a couple. Lots of drivers think beaching is easy but then they start breaking springs like crazy. Like docking, it takes patience to beach properly. Check your springs after each beaching as you will lose rudder authority on the water whenever one breaks which could impact your docking at your next destination.

Prop Latches!!!

Once you learn to use the Caravan's disadvantages on the water to your advantage, you will love it. It is a real slick machine and a serious money maker. I wish I had one for my own personal use!!

[SarahLovesSeaplanes]

Thanks, all very useful info.

[seasonaldriver]

All of the above is great info. In addition, and I'm not sure if this is standard on the 208 now as I haven't flown one for a few years, but make sure that the "relish tray" mod has been done to the firewall. The firewall is a weak point in the 208 structure and will start to buckle under the stress of pounding into waves on landing and takeoff. Then it gets real expensive!

Be anal about doing compressor washes and rinsing the aircraft structures with ACF. Also, especially in saltwater, I'm told that any tiny little hole in the paint can start corrosion in the floats. Finally, from personal experience, keep the gear well greased. The bearings will self destruct if you don't and they are not cheap to replace.

Aside from all that the 208 is a lovely plane to fly, especially with an autopilot so that you can get at least most of your paperworkdone before you land.

[Just Duckie]

Don't forget the 7800 pound landing limit for the amphib on a runway.

[oldncold]

Sarah , good on ya , the van is good machine and +1 to previous posters on thing to be careful about for the front seat pax is letting then move out of the front px seat and on to the float if you have to dock on the right the exhaust can leave a nasty burn , i always gotem to move into the middle once taxing so that i could maneouver from the right side> oh make sure maintenance doesn't remove the rudder pedals on the right it is a b.... when they do that ,you must have to have legs like a giraffe to manage. and on t/o plan your into wind turn for the run well especially for departure that need a right turn the rudder is smaller and some have said runs of of right rudder in the intial phase of the t/o ie high nose up high power and before comes over on the step. if you have a strong wind from the right if you are late with the turn left in to wind best to start again .


next is the float hatches only put stuff that doesn't mind getting damp or wet .. fuel cans .flats of water and pop etc/ use hefty super duty garbage bags other wise the hatches openings are smaller that the otter . big mess. lol


if you are on the coast and having to use inlets and bays for your t/o run add about 30% distance once on step vs turbo otter. to break water as a good safety rule until you get really comfortable. so good timing for distance on the way in is more important to give the sufficient out on departure.


have fun

[trey kule]

I am a bit surprised no one has mentioned the salt.....If you are flying water to pavement dalily, the salt plays real havoc with the brakes, wheel bearings etc...Keeping them risnsed and cleaned constantly unless you like the excitement of crossrunaytaxiing.
I am not sure of the new models, but if the electric stuff for the gear is in the floats,,,watch that for corrossion.
These are not just mainenance issues as they cause pilots problems so good to keep an eye on them.

Compressor washes...as someone mentioned...be anal...the boss will appreciate it as much as the engine. They are cheap as you can do most of them using just demineralized water. Daily, if you are in and out of saltwater.

Someone also mentioned the bulkhead..It was a huge problem a few years ago...And if it is not modified, it will be a problem for you..They were never made to slam into the big swells like the otters.

`Nice enough machine on floats...You should find it enjoyable.

[1000 HP]

Don't forget the 7800 pound landing limit for the amphib on a runway.

Not much worry about that with the 350 pound per hour fuel burn. Unless you are in an emergency situation and have to come back.

[1000 HP]

I've got about 1500 hrs on the Amphib with the 675 hp engine. Excellent airplane. Not real good at short field take-offs on water, but 95% of the lakes are good. We used to haul boats externally all the time, but that is apparently not allowed on Wips. I found that once on the step you could go to full flap (30 deg) and it pops off the water easily and still flies real nice. 350 PPH fuel burn for flight planning. Most passengers like it more than the Otter because it looks about 40 years newer (and is) and flies faster and quieter. It is a real pain in the butt for hauling 16' lumber. I just strapped the lumber together ( 2 stacks of 12 2x8's x 16 footers) and loaded it on the pilot side float with a forklift. You wouldn't even know it was there.

Like the other guys said, the fuel caps on top of the wings were painful. Some lucky guys have single point.

[ragbagflyer]

I'm also going to be on a caravan this summer, albeit on wheels. I see wipaire has a couple mods maybe somebody has some more info on.
http://www.wipaire.com/myaircraft/cessn ... ations.php
There's an upgross kit that includes VG's. Anybody know what kind of difference in stall speed they make?
There also looks to be a 675 hp conversion for those with only the pt4 114. What is involved in squeezing the extra 75 hp out of that engine?

[1000 HP]

I've never seen one of the 600 HP versions. Didn't think anybody used them. I know there are some 1000 HP versions out there now.

[Meatservo]

I believe Kelner used to have one of the early 600 hp ones, but I'm not sure.

[1000 HP]

I think that you can upgrade the engine to 675 HP at overhaul. Not sure. So if that is the case, there probably are not any 600 HP models left out there flying in the bush work anyways. Maybe Fedex has them.

[Tanker299]

We have a 600hp van on anphibs, not a great performer and it's going on wheels, however the extra 75hp does not make all that much difference. It's like a 206 on floats just should not be done. The Garrett is the only way to go if your going to be on the water.

[1000 HP]

Sorry Tanker299 gotta dis-aggree with that. It's a great airplane on floats. Sure it's not a 1000 HP piston Otter (I miss those babies) but it hauls a good load equal to the Otter and all you have to remember is that it has it's got it's limits.
I'm sure the 1000 HP version is a blast but the 675 is very acceptable, quiet, and has the advantage of not blowing to pieces when a bird is sucked into the intake.

Taking off from a runway, it will haul anything you can stuff into it. You can't really judge an airplane until you have 100 hrs on it. By then you know the tricks..

A trick to get of the water is once on the step (2 notches of flap) apply full flap. Works well with few trim changes.

[Meatservo]

Actually 1000hp, I beg to (respectfully) disagree, but I don't think the plane itself helps you get on the step; it's the engine and floats. If you leave the flaps completely retracted during the initial acceleration, and put'em to twenty as you roll onto the step, I'll bet you get airborne just as quick. During exhaustive (and fun) trials with a turbo otter and a caravan, my friends and I discovered that a caravan would actually climb onto the step quicker than the otter because it had less drag, but would take more lake to actually lift off. Both planes had Wip floats. Therefore I think the less drag the better during the initial accelleration, then the flaps become necessary approaching flying speed. Our trials were not very carefully scientific however. I could be out to lunch.

I agree though, the Caravan floatplane has a place, there have been many far worse ones. I kind of liked it.

[1000 HP]

True enough Meatservo. My bad..

I had a total flap failure (up position) 400 miles north of Fort Smith, NT. I actually had the failure in Lutselke, on takeoff, but because the flaps seemed to have "gremlins" I thought they might "heal" There was a set of mainwheel marks at the far end of the runway that day....

Anyways, I landed fully grossed with no flaps in glassy water after taking a really good look at the target location. She sure wants to pull when you touch down! You have to really trim it back a lot. Plus, approach is a little quick for my liking.

We unloaded (yeah, me and the two fatest guys Natural Resources could find to help) the drums of fresh Jet Fuel at the cache and reloaded the old drums. I'm not mentioning quantities of drums, naturally because it would be the legal quantity..

Then I called the base engineer on the Sat Phone. I looked like Mr. Bean trying to keep a signal while standing on top the the Caravan roof. We talked for about 5 seconds total. Not fixed.

Takeoff would have been easier if I had unloaded the cargo, or if it hadn't been 28 deg C and glassy. But I was lazy after working in the heat with Curly and Moe all day.

So away we went. I figured I had about 5 kilometers of lake, if the big rock I could see 2/3rds of the way out was actually deep not at the surface. I got on the step ok. It was glued down like a fly on poo. I finally got one float out at 2 km and 85 kts. That took a big combo pull and twist. The other end of the lake was coming up fast. At 95 kts and about 3 kilometers, I got the other float out, and after a brief waddle, sped up and climbed out.

Another fun day in the bush

[Tanker299]

Thanks for the excellent post 1000hp. Never flew the polish pig, just heard they never made it to overhaul and the one we had before my time the problem was the case. I work in the hills and short lakes and much like the 206 the Pratt vans just don't cut the mustard up high. They are a great wheel plane(almost any alt)and an ok floater at sea level. Cessna wings are just to fast and I honestly would take a 1340 otter with the big blower and the albatross prop over the Pratt van and I can stick that thing anywhere I would put the old beaver.( had a great teacher with 15000 round 1340h and 9000 beaver) However this is not the otter vs van forum. 900 ponies makes the van what it should have been, the modern day otter. The only thing I hate about the Garrett is the bad cold weather starting. Never did the full flap thing might try it, always rolled the flaps on from 0. Sure do miss my 206(with wing ext) the van and otter just haul too much and my back hates me now, always wondered why the bosses flew the smallest planes.

[1000 HP]

I agree with you on the short little lakes. The polish beast was awesome for those. I flew out of Temiskami for a French Canadian by the name for (crap can't remember it). He was a great Chief. Either growled or smiled. Never went on although I heard a Tabarnac maybe....

Anyways, I was on the Caravan there, and many times wished I'd had the old Polish Beast. The competition had a couple.

I flew a 1000 HP in Red Lake, Silver Falls, and Selkirk previously. We didn't have trouble getting to TBO most of the time. It had a lot to do with not overboosting and being sure to pull your prop through in the morning or after a long lull. I can't tell you how many times I've seen guys "pull the prop" through with the starter..I remember a bird named KYG that was doing time trials. It used 2.5 gallons of oil per hour. But I think we had 2300 hrs on it. Can't remember. We had to wash the fuselage every flight. But I loved the sound of the round. Way better than a screaming frickin turbine causing premature hearing loss for everybody on the dock. At least if you have a dumb dock boy you can yell at him over the grumble of a idling radial