Since the introduction of the new RNAV SIDS/STARS we've found it next to impossible to depart the north end for anything going east of Toronto. We keep hearing that current rules do not allow it but I would like to know when it's possible to fly to Halifax without having to consistently taxi to the south side of the field..

Thanks,

In the instructions we were given in the agreement with Terminal was for no non-conformers (you departing 05/23 going east is considered a non-conforming departure) for 60 days. That was, what, 34 days ago? So possibly still a while to wait.

Back to normal today.

AOA

Out of interest are you parking at the north end of the field or do you need 05/23 for operational reasons ie extra length?
The new airspace around Toronto has made departure a lot more complicated so "non conformers" were restricted whilst we could get used to the new system.

Regards

MAC

AOA wrote:Since the introduction of the new RNAV SIDS/STARS we've found it next to impossible to depart the north end for anything going east of Toronto. We keep hearing that current rules do not allow it but I would like to know when it's possible to fly to Halifax without having to consistently taxi to the south side of the field..

Thanks,

My bold type.

I wouldn't be out of line to say that no aircraft from the north end need 05/23. It is, however, a great help to them and those of us in the room with a view if they can use that runway both for departure and arrival.

The published preferred routing from the east includes the RAGID arrival and this is what we've been filing. A controller mentioned one day that this arrival was OK for the 24's but the IMEBA arrival is used for 23. Both arrivals route to all three runways so I'm wondering what the SOP is for assigning them.

We don't need to depart off 05/23 for any specific performance issue. It's certainly a matter of convenience to make short, quick ground movements both to the runway and away from it.

In the end a number of different arguments can be made. On the one hand, we burn less gas to get to the other side of the field while taxiing vs flying out on an extended heading. (leave out that our carbon brakes are operating in a less than ideal environment) The other is what our folks see, a long taxi. In a non-conforming departure we'll climb steeply in order to get to altitude faster. (The challenge is the ever present traffic and altitude restrictions)

I'm encouraged that Cossak mentioned we're "back to normal".. and from what D.E.G discussed I'll look to file the IMEBA arrival!

Thanks for the input and discussion,
AOA

DEG and AOA

When we are on the 24s the two arrivals do go to all 3 runways (23/24R/L). At the moment the terminal preference is for IMEBA to land 23 and RAGID to land 24L or R. We are to let the enroute know by 60 miles from YYZ what runway we would like you to land on.

As always one of the main determinants for your arrival runway will be traffic loading in the terminal at the time...so although you may file the IMEBA arrival you may find that runway 23 is already overloaded and you end up being given 24R/L anyway. Or conversely if you came in over RAGID and put in a request for the north side the chances are you would get it.
Most of us in the terminal give the biz jets their choice (as we are never sure if you are at Landmark or Skyservice)...and if you are coming from the east and had filed IMEBA you would be very unlucky not to get the north end. Best to always tell the enroute controllers your preference and they let us know in plenty of time. It gives us a chance to balance the traffic from other fixes.

As regards to departure. From a personal perspective the "non conformer" issue dosen't really worry me if you climb well. The sooner you get above 4000 ft the sooner we can cut you across the departure path of the other runway. Tower climbs both aircraft to 3000ft only and we decide in the terminal who will climb/turn first. Normally a bizjet will win hands down.
It was restricted when the new airspace was brought in because departures aren't able to climb as quickly or as high as before and the controllers were having to concentrate a lot more "away from the field" as oppose to close in which is what is needed with non conforming departures.

Cossack....One day Fedex will have to land 06R. That must be the worst taxi for you?? or can you think of a longer one?

Married a Canadian wrote:Cossack....One day Fedex will have to land 06R. That must be the worst taxi for you?? or can you think of a longer one?

What do you mean "one day"? It doesn't happen often, but it has happened.

Putting the transborder Jazz and GGN types on 23 is a long taxy too but they don't normally have to cross four runways, two of them active, to get to their gate.