ACPA Pilots AD in Newspapers Mach 31 2012

[Lost in Saigon]

[rudder]

Is that March 31st 2012 or 1998? It sounds the same.

Plus ca change...

[Rollercoaster Rider]

Unbelievable lost in the 8o's is more like it.Before the advent of low cost models.Westjet has already shown that loosing the old ways of sienority rules and antiquated bidding to become more efficient and show profit is now the reality of making money in the airline buisness.We are only dealing with a small population base to begin with and you want it all.Every jet job no matter how small and every union loophole to ensure you dont have to fly your 1000 hrs in the year.If you dont wake up the rest of the buisness will soon slip away because the rest of us 2080 hour slaves do not care to hear any more blah blah about how hard you are done by the big bad wolf.Your inflight cost are not in line with what Canada can supprt you in.Compare the jobs and how tem teal pay each department and it doesnt take an MBA to see the difference.It is not entirely what is paid to pilots but a whole world away.Plane size,DB obligations,inefficient unions take your pick and drink a cup of wake the @#$% up.Whinning in the paper just look even more pathetic for your cause...The pyramid pozi contract will be your undoing if it isnt already there. Just my opinion after working in this crazy industry for the last 20 years and watching this unfold every time your contract comes due..

[Rockie]

What's a 2080 hour slave?

Would that be someone who gets 40 hours of pay for 40 hours of work and gets to go home at the end of their shift? Someone who isn't by law solely responsible for the safety of the passengers and crew under their command? Do you mean a person not required to pass recurrent testing three times a year to prove they still have the knowledge and skills to do their job, and pass a medical exam twice a year or have their license revoked? Is that what a 2080 slave is?

I don't see the connection but I'll tell you what, when you decide to go on strike to prevent your company from giving away your job I will support not only your right to strike but the reasons too. Even if I happen to think you're a spoiled, overpaid 2080 hour slave.

[crazy_aviator]

Folks, We ALL know that egalomanic pilots are entitlement junkies and have generally been fed from birth, a lollipop of self indulgence !

[Rollercoaster Rider]

Ok lets talk about who,s overpaid or spoiled.Wheres my crew meal that your going to thow out anyway because when you get to your 5 star overnight you can chose steak or lobster( tax free perdiem).Your biggest stress is wondering which f/a to beguile with your stories of how you will retire to the islands on your sailboat while a/c continuies to pay till your dead.The average private pilot flying calgary saskatoon return has a harder workload than your work week.Wait you only bid the return trip with your sienority and you had a paying passenger kicked out of your first class seat to get there..Seen it done at the gate. I can go on all day with this if you want as I,m off and just getting warmed up.Go ahead rockie....lets here you pull a rabbit out of the funny looking hat..that by contract you didn,t have to pay for.Newspaper propaganda really struck the last nerve I have for your situation.

[TheStig]

Ok lets talk about who,s overpaid or spoiled.Wheres my crew meal that your going to thow out anyway because when you get to your 5 star overnight you can chose steak or lobster( tax free perdiem).Your biggest stress is wondering which f/a to beguile with your stories of how you will retire to the islands on your sailboat while a/c continuies to pay till your dead.The average private pilot flying calgary saskatoon return has a harder workload than your work week.Wait you only bid the return trip with your sienority and you had a paying passenger kicked out of your first class seat to get there..Seen it done at the gate. I can go on all day with this if you want as I,m off and just getting warmed up.Go ahead rockie....lets here you pull a rabbit out of the funny looking hat..that by contract you didn,t have to pay for.Newspaper propaganda really struck the last nerve I have for your situation.

RCR,

The ad seems cheesy for sure, but judging by your 13 posts on this this forum you seem either, misinformed, here stir the pot or both. I'm not going to bother debating pretty much every sentance in the paragraph quoted above (or correcting your grammer, sentance structure, or spelling) and I doubt Rockie will either.

[Rollercoaster Rider]

Your right stig ,I have only posted since the toronto fiasco.I'm not overly concerned about my grammar, sentence structure or if it is even spelled right.What is happening to the parent company is the only thing that matters to my own selfish point of view.I take it out on you because as stated before you are in command of the situation.You go down and everyone goes down with you.The problem is that your group only care about your interests regardless of the rest that will be harmed by your direct actions.So carry on captain,good luck.

[one8tee]

RCR.. I'm going to take the bait here.

1) Do you realise pilots only get paid when the aircraft is moving? That hour between every flight where they check the aircraft for mechanical malfunctions? free. Where they go over the route and weather to ensure you have a safe and smooth flght? Free. How about after the flight when they complete paperwork/ asses the plane to fly the next day/ laise with maintenance? Free. How about the 30 hours in a hotel in Regina away from their families... you guessed it. Free.

2) 1000 hours of flight time easily works out to 2000 hours "working"

3)Since the hourly wage is quoted for flight time you can effectively divide it in half to compare to your office hourly salary you want to compare it to so badly.

4)WJ pilots makes more than Air Canada pilots on similar size. weird? All your babble about the new realities, being spoiled brats blah blah makes no sense. All these pilots want is fair compensation and respect from the company that they work for. The same company that executives continually run into the ground, into debt and then come to the employee groups for concessions. I'm actually quite ashamed that so many passengers take what these guys do for granted. If I was you I would be embarrassed.

[AuxBatOn]

RCR.. I'm going to take the bait here.

1) Do you realise pilots only get paid when the aircraft is moving? That hour between every flight where they check the aircraft for mechanical malfunctions? free. Where they go over the route and weather to ensure you have a safe and smooth flght? Free. How about after the flight when they complete paperwork/ asses the plane to fly the next day/ laise with maintenance? Free. How about the 30 hours in a hotel in Regina away from their families... you guessed it. Free.

Got a solution for you: Give all pilot a yearly salary. No overtime, you get paid the same, regardless of how much or how little you fly. Give a few bucks every time a pilot takes an extra shift not on his monthly schedule. Give 2 days of sick leave a month. Any more than that, you need to see a CAM for substantiation.

Air Canada pilots are not the only ones away from their families for "30 hours" and they are not the only professionals that work a lot.

I do 3 checkrides a year, 4 written exams, 1 medical, regularly spend 24 hours at work (yes I sleep there) and sometimes 48. I cannot even go outside the building for those 24/48 hours. I regularly work 60 hours week. I am currently away from home for 10 days. What do I get more than my base salary for doing all that? You guess it. Sweet @#$! all.

If you're not happy with the conditions you find yourself in (including, but not limited to the money you make), time to move on.

[Oscar]

Check out a few of the beauty responses from Joe Blow in 23C

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-cana ... -plea.html

[Rockie]

I do 3 checkrides a year, 4 written exams, 1 medical, regularly spend 24 hours at work (yes I sleep there) and sometimes 48. I cannot even go outside the building for those 24/48 hours. I regularly work 60 hours week. I am currently away from home for 10 days. What do I get more than my base salary for doing all that? You guess it. Sweet @#$! all.

Been there done that and moved on, as have hundreds and hundreds of my colleagues at Air Canada and elsewhere. And I might add we did it for a lot less money than you're currently making. You're still in the piss and vinegar stage of your flying career and have little to no insight into our side of the equation. We'll talk again in twenty years.

RCR

May I ask what line of work you're in?

[Rollercoaster Rider]

Hey Rockie,
I work in the same place you do and payed from same customer you want to abandon.20 years now and wondering why I was so blinded into thinking that this would take me to retirement without having to change proffesions again.Oil and gas next I guess.What about you rockie?

[AuxBatOn]

Been there done that and moved on, as have hundreds and hundreds of my colleagues at Air Canada and elsewhere. And I might add we did it for a lot less money than you're currently making. You're still in the piss and vinegar stage of your flying career and have little to no insight into our side of the equation. We'll talk again in twenty years.

I know you've been there done that. My point to one8tee is that you should know, before you train, what it means to be a pilot. Yes, it will mean time away from home. If before hand it doesn't suit your lifestyle (as it seems with him, apparently time off in Regina, away from home in unacceptable), don't go into that line of work.

When you become fed up with a company, you have a few choices available to to: You either @#$! off and do something else, suck it up for a few more years for added benefits (for example, you are close to a pension) or you suck it up period.

If so many pilots are unhappy with Air Canada's management, why don't they quit or at least exercise one of the 3 options I just said? If Air Canada finds itself out of experienced pilots, or pilots period, it will have to modify its business model. In my opinion, whining through the union will achieve zip @#$! all. Unions breed selfishness and a false sense of entitlement.

[teacher]

I just want to point out again that WJ pilots make more but have greater productivity than AC folks. If AC pilots worked as much as WJ pilots they'd make more too.

[Rockie]

Hey Rockie,
I work in the same place you do and payed from same customer you want to abandon.

Where do you get the idea I or any of the other pilots want to abandon our customers? Who was it that guaranteed there would be no work stoppage over Christmas or March break? Us perhaps? Who was it that locked out the pilots at the very beginning of March break? Think real hard about that one and tell me again who gives a shit about the customers. By the way RCR, if Rovinescu gets his way with our scope clause your job is toast as well.

When you become fed up with a company, you have a few choices available to to: You either @#$! off and do something else, suck it up for a few more years for added benefits (for example, you are close to a pension) or you suck it up period.

If so many pilots are unhappy with Air Canada's management, why don't they quit or at least exercise one of the 3 options I just said?

Because there's a fourth option. Prevent the company from changing an agreement that's been in place for decades allowing them to eliminate your job and give it to someone else who will do it cheaper. And there's always someone willing to do it cheaper. That fourth option is permitted under Canadian Labour law along with the right to strike. Lest you need reminding those are but a couple of the rights and freedoms you wear that uniform to defend.

[AuxBatOn]

Because there's a fourth option. Prevent the company from changing an agreement that's been in place for decades allowing them to eliminate your job and give it to someone else who will do it cheaper. And there's always someone willing to do it cheaper. That fourth option is permitted under Canadian Labour law along with the right to strike. Lest you need reminding those are but a couple of the rights and freedoms you wear that uniform to defend.

Times change as well as circumstances. Sometimes, like during these days, everybody needs to tighten the belt a bit for the greater good. Guess what, despite a 1.5% raise this year, I will likely take a 5.2% net pay cut. All that in the name of the economy, as well as stopping accruing severance pay. I'm not only speaking of pilots, but everybody, including the management. I am by no mean defending your management (which does a terrible job), but rather, I am trying to understand the feeling of entitlement Air Canada Unions have. If your company goes under (and the government doesn't bail it out), you will be out of job. It's not about who has the biggest part of the pie, but a general belt tightening for a brighter future.

I am all about the rights I defend, however, the right to strike today greatly differs from 100 years ago, when a strike was not about getting a salary increase for people already with an income in the top 10%, but because they were beaten at work.

[Mig29]

The bs some of you can write on here is astounding!!

next topic please...this one is already in the water.

[Rockie]

I am trying to understand the feeling of entitlement Air Canada Unions have.

Do you really interpret fighting to keep your job from being given to somebody else as "entitlement"? Perhaps you like so many others don't understand what the big issue is here.

Rovinescu wants to move airplanes - meaning our jobs - out of Air Canada and give them to some other pilots to fly who will do it cheaper, and he's well along in implementing that plan since the government is being so compliant with his wishes. The end game of this is that he will let Air Canada crumble taking all the financial obligations and further debt accrued while propping up his brilliant new LCC, putting every last remaining Air Canada employee out of work. That's the big issue here, and if you don't believe me google "Jetstar" and "Aveos" for a quick refresher.

If you think I'm being "entitled" for not wanting those things to happen then just what the hell would you personally be willing to fight for?

[AuxBatOn]

I am trying to understand the feeling of entitlement Air Canada Unions have.

Do you really interpret fighting to keep your job from being given to somebody else as "entitlement"? Perhaps you like so many others don't understand what the big issue is here.

Rovinescu wants to move airplanes - meaning our jobs - out of Air Canada and give them to some other pilots to fly who will do it cheaper. That's one issue. The other big one for me is the fact he wants to take away my pension. If you think I'm being "entitled" for not wanting those things to happen then just what the hell would you personally be willing to fight for?

They are a company and they can do pretty much what they want to increase their bottom line. People get fired every day for restructuration and modification of processes. Welcome to Capitalism.

[Rockie]

They are a company and they can do pretty much what they want to increase their bottom line.

No they can't. I refer you yet again to Canadian Labour Law.

Workers have rights in this country, or at least they used to until Emperor Harper came along.

[AuxBatOn]

They are a company and they can do pretty much what they want to increase their bottom line.

No they can't. I refer you yet again to Canadian Labour Law.

Workers have rights in this country, or at least they used to until Emperor Harper came along.

So, a company cannot be flexible at all in their business plan? Or are you talking about unionized businesses?

[Rockie]

So, a company cannot be flexible at all in their business plan?

I never said or implied that in any way. I said workers have rights enshrined in the Canadian Labour Code and a company must respect those rights. Part I of that code deals with industrial relations, and I've included the preamble to it below as well as a link to the Code. Tell me if either Harper or Air Canada are honouring the Canadian Labour Code or its principles.

Preamble

WHEREAS there is a long tradition in Canada of labour legislation and policy designed for the promotion of the common well-being through the encouragement of free collective bargaining and the constructive settlement of disputes;

AND WHEREAS Canadian workers, trade unions and employers recognize and support freedom of association and free collective bargaining as the bases of effective industrial relations for the determination of good working conditions and sound labour-management relations;

AND WHEREAS the Government of Canada has ratified Convention No. 87 of the International Labour Organization concerning Freedom of Association and Protection of the Right to Organize and has assumed international reporting responsibilities in this regard;

AND WHEREAS the Parliament of Canada desires to continue and extend its support to labour and management in their cooperative efforts to develop good relations and constructive collective bargaining practices, and deems the development of good industrial relations to be in the best interests of Canada in ensuring a just share of the fruits of progress to all;

NOW THEREFORE, Her Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate and House of Commons of Canada, enacts as follows:

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/labour/labou ... ndex.shtml

[AuxBatOn]

I never said or implied that in any way. I said workers have rights enshrined in the Canadian Labour Code and a company must respect those rights. Part I of that code deals with industrial relations, and I've included the preamble to it below as well as a link to the Code. Tell me if either Harper or Air Canada are honouring the Canadian Labour Code or its principles.

AC Management and AC unions have been (free) bargaining like cry babies for as long as I can remember.

Sometimes, there is a bigger picture than your small world. When your issues affect the bigger picture, I expect the government to intervene. Air Canada providing what is considered an essential service, it's the Government's responsibility to intervene when your conflict has an impact on the bigger picture.

Obviously we have very, very diverging political and ideological views and I think we'll have to agree we have to disagree.

[Rockie]

AC Management and AC unions have been (free) bargaining like cry babies for as long as I can remember.

That's your opinion, and your opinion doesn't change the fact Canadians have the right to collectively bargain. It also is what produces mutually agreeable contracts which, again, you might not think is important in your little world but it is.

Air Canada providing what is considered an essential service, it's the Government's responsibility to intervene when your conflict has an impact on the bigger picture.

Air Canada is not an essential service otherwise the government would declare it one which they haven't done. The government intervened because of ideology, not necessity. They've done the same in every labour dispute under their jurisdiction because they don't think any workers should have the right to strike plain and simple.

When I was serving my country I knew what I was defending. It was what Canada stood for, not some extreme right wing ideologue temporarily occupying 24 Sussex Drive.