Flying in -FZRA

Mud Farmer · Post by **Mud Farmer** » Sat May 19, 2012 9:28 am

I just witnessed a King Air t/o and land 1/2 hr later in -FZRA. I didn't think this was allowed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Northern Flyer · Post by **Northern Flyer** » Sat May 19, 2012 10:52 am

Wow. Get a life!

oldncold · Post by **oldncold** » Sat May 19, 2012 12:16 pm

1/ the aircraft must be capable of handling the adtual and antiscipated wx

2/ an approved deicing program and training must be in place / if no approved deice program then hold over tables are not allowed to be used /

3/ crew must be trained for icing awarness

4/ critical surfaces /clean wing concept applies

5/ tactile examination must be performed immediately prior to departure

6/if in doubt deice

PIC HAS THE FINAL AND ULTIMIATE RESPONSIBLITY FOR THE SAFETY OF THE AIRCRAFT.

the king air has under most normal ifr /wx conditions sufficient power / deice systems /to deal with the canadian wx note* (most not all)

is take off legal yes

ever · Post by **ever** » Sat May 19, 2012 12:24 pm

Northern Flyer wrote:Wow. Get a life!

Seems like a fair concern, didn't seem like the OP was chastising anybody. Your reaction IMO is unwarranted. If you're gonna post a reply it may as well be of some value.

Northern Flyer · Post by **Northern Flyer** » Sat May 19, 2012 1:07 pm

ever wrote:
Northern Flyer wrote:Wow. Get a life!
Seems like a fair concern, didn't seem like the OP was chastising anybody. Your reaction IMO is unwarranted. If you're gonna post a reply it may as well be of some value.

Maybe your right.

I think I will go sit at the airport and make sure that no one exceeds their crosswind limits.....

Slappy the Squirrel · Post by **Slappy the Squirrel** » Sat May 19, 2012 2:59 pm

Somebody help me out here... I also am missing the point here. Is a King Air not certified for flight in light freezing rain? ie. icing conditions??

ever · Post by **ever** » Sat May 19, 2012 3:24 pm

Northern Flyer wrote:Maybe your right.

I think I will go sit at the airport and make sure that no one exceeds their crosswind limits.....

or you could just ask nicely here and someone might tell ya what the crosswind limit is on their particular aircraft, or get scolded... its a toss up.

Maynard · Post by **Maynard** » Sat May 19, 2012 3:30 pm

Pretty sure there's nothing illegal about a king air landing in -fzra....

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat May 19, 2012 3:32 pm

or you could just ask nicely here and someone might tell ya what the crosswind limit is on their particular aircraft,

How many airplanes have a crosswind " limit "

sanjet · Post by **sanjet** » Sat May 19, 2012 3:40 pm

Most turboprops I have flown were certified to fly in light freezing rain (and within my limits) as per their AFM. Is the king air not certified for it?

ever · Post by **ever** » Sat May 19, 2012 4:17 pm

Cat Driver wrote:How many airplanes have a crosswind " limit "

Im honoured! the old cat driver is quoting me, sorry cat... i meant to say Demonstrated cross wind limit... and I don't know how many have a demonstrated crosswind limit.. but in the AFM of the aircraft I fly, it says 22kts.

Now get off these boards and go fishing Cat... its too cold where I am to do anything outdoorsy.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat May 19, 2012 4:27 pm

Now get off these boards and go fishing Cat... its too cold where I am to do anything outdoorsy.

Funny you should mention that ever, I just spent most of the day inflating my Zodiac and cleaning the thing....it has not been used for three years and was really a mess....looks good now though.

It is on its way to the lodge in a few days so I can use it there if I want to.

Demonstrated cross winds are any you can land in and taxi to the parking area.

DanWEC · Post by **DanWEC** » Sat May 19, 2012 4:40 pm

I was under the impression that no aircraft was currently certified for flight in frzra. In Canada the applicable limits for each plane are published in the AFM. I could be by wrong but curious as to if there are exceptions?

Colonel Sanders · Post by **Colonel Sanders** » Sat May 19, 2012 4:49 pm

Get a life!

Indeed.

sanjet · Post by **sanjet** » Sat May 19, 2012 4:57 pm

DanWEC wrote:I was under the impression that no aircraft was currently certified for flight in frzra. In Canada the applicable limits for each plane are published in the AFM. I could be by wrong but curious as to if there are exceptions?

Most aircraft are certified to take off into light freezing rain, that being said check your AFM and make sure your aircraft is. They are still not allowed to take off into moderate freezing rain. In fact if you now look at the transport canada de-ice fluid holdover times, they now include holdover times for light freezing and and light ice pellets.

Big Pistons Forever · Post by **Big Pistons Forever** » Sat May 19, 2012 5:31 pm

Personally my interest in blasting off into freezing rain is pretty much zero, especially in anything small.

Light freezing rain can turn into heavy freezing rain without any warning. Before blasting off into it you need to have a very firm idea of where the warm air is and how long you are going to be in it. This is a meteorological phenomenon which should not be trifled with.....

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat May 19, 2012 5:36 pm

Pelee Island comes to mind as an example of taking off in light freezing rain.

Liquid Charlie · Post by **Liquid Charlie** » Sat May 19, 2012 5:41 pm

Also I don't think a lot of King Airs are certified for type 4 (not sure about a 350) so freezing precip of any king will have virtually no hold over time based on type 1 only -- better be a damn short taxi -- and was it in fact freezing rain and not freezing drizzle -- big difference -- so many questions and very little info --

fanspeed · Post by **fanspeed** » Sat May 19, 2012 5:46 pm

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... er-757.htm

I work for a manufacturer, as a production test pilot, and am not aware of any aircraft certified for flight in freezing precip.

single_swine_herder · Post by **single_swine_herder** » Sat May 19, 2012 6:05 pm

Icing certification ceases at a droplet size of 50 microns. In an oversimplification, that means saturated cloud size droplets.

No FAR 23 certified icing aircaft is able to handle freezing drizzle/mist or rain.

To do so is outside the certification ... to some of you, that whole concept is meaningless and you'll fly in almost anything to complete a trip, to others it may be a first time eye-opener, to another group, its verification of their reading and a statement of well known information.

Thanks for posting "the straight skinny" reference material Fanspeed.

Get a life indeed!

bananaskins · Post by **bananaskins** » Sat May 19, 2012 6:18 pm

Good Post "fanspeed"! And good question "mudfarmer"!

Now to the other members who just posted responses to fanspeed's very reasonable query as to whether or not a particular aircraft is certified to takeoff in freezing rain is concerned, why not sit back and think a little before you start blasting away on that old keyboard.

In particular this is going out to "Cat Driver" who always likes raise his hand to the teacher for attention! And the other of you....."get real"....among other stupid responses to a very good question!

Just when you start thinking you know it all, as I said to Cat Driver, sit back and think for a bit before you take a chance at making yourself appear.....ignorant....

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Sat May 19, 2012 6:40 pm

I thought the OP asked a fair and reasonable question, and am really quite surprised by some of the rather unkind responses..

Feezing rain is a very serious issue, and for a new pilot wanting to know about it makes perfect sense, particularily asking about a plane taking off in it. I have to wonder from one or two of the response if some of these posters have a much deeper reason for not wanting this discussed. But that is just a feeling.

My thoughts are freezing rain is evil. And as I dont have a crystal ball, I have to ask myself, is this the worst or if I climb up a couple of thousand feet will it get worse. All this referencing AFM's, CARs SOPs etc, seem to be replacing common sense a bit.

To the OP.. Listen to the "get a life crowd", because if you make a mistake in a small plane (evena king air), you wont have one....It would be interesting to know the airport involved and the time..For me I would like to check the weather. For some companies, they might like to know if it was their plane....just saying

rooster · Post by **rooster** » Sat May 19, 2012 7:13 pm

Northern Flyer wrote:Wow. Get a life!

And posting this kind of response to a thread you believe is useless makes you what?

Give your head a shake. If you don't feel it necessary to provide constructive feedback, then remove yourself from a computer and get yourself a life instead of telling that to others.

Freezing rain shuts airports down does it not? Air carriers do not go in and out during those conditions. Or maybe it's just company specific?

Flyboy757 · Post by **Flyboy757** » Sat May 19, 2012 7:20 pm

The OP asked,IMO, a reasonable questions . I cannot believe the rudeness of some of the members of this forum. Unbelieveable ........with your comments you certainly do not promote open dialoge or learning on this or any other matter of concern by members who may be less experienced pilots. You should use your knowledge and experience to promote safe flying not crap on someone for asking a question. We all have to learn from others experience and their mistakes. Remember ...there are no dumb questions!

single_swine_herder · Post by **single_swine_herder** » Sat May 19, 2012 8:20 pm

The attitudes expressed by some in this thread remind me of an Ops Mgr I worked for a long time ago ....one of her favourite expressions in response to cancelling a VFR float trip due to 1/8th of a mile in fog was .... "well, it makes you wonder how they got around in the old days before all this fancy equipment came along to make your life easier doesn't it?"

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