AME shortage?

[fixnfly]

I was reading a topic in the general forum about a possible pilot shortage so I thought I would start one about the AME shortage that is already beginning. I was talking with a few guys at work that the need for experienced AME's in the near future is very real with all the baby boomers retiring. I know most company's at YYC are looking for experienced licensed guys. It also seems like there's lower enrolment at the colleges. Last year SAIT closed down its C class (3rd class) because they couldn't get enough students.

Any thoughts?

[acidgambit]

Hard to say. The collapse of Aveos a few months ago. That's like 2000 guys on the street. Of course in those numbers are AME M, E, S, trim and fit, and groomers. Some people have gotten into other industries while some are still in it. Bombardier, Pratt and Whitney, and other companies are hiring for sure. And they don't have any issues finding candidates applying. Some of the old timers can't afford to retire that early now. So expect to see them longer. I wouldn't mind working with them either. As we the young ones need to learn from their experience.

Companies like North Cariboo, Central Mountain Air, Sunwest, Transwest, West Wind....they have so many people to pick from. Competition is fierce for sure.

The smaller companies up north might feel like there is a shortage of AMEs, but that is because many people don't want to go up there. But if it is a big company like First Air, Canadian North, Air North...they don't have to worry. There will always be people willing to work in the airlines.

About schooling. I have no idea. Haven't been paying attention. Just hope the schools aren't brain washing the students that's all. I am glad my instructors told me about the reality when i took the program. It sure helped a lot.

[helicopterray]

Enrollment is definitely down at the schools.
A lot of kids coming out of high school nowdays don't want to get their hands dirty. The ones that don't mind getting their hands dirty are going into the oil patch where they can make significantly more money.

I know that just about every company that operates a northern base could use AME's right now. There's a gap, and it's going to get worse.

[acidgambit]

Makes sense. But this will lead to another topic. During the big gap when there isn't enough AMEs to fill the spots. I wonder if the companies are going to either bump up salary to attract the experienced AMEs to come out of hiding...or....the companies will just hire people with barely any skills at all and pay them crappy wages and pray that no plane will crash.

[Tiredoldcoot]

While I'm sure that the big Aveos lay off have but a lot more engineers out of work, I'm NOT entirely convinced that is has caused a glut of engineers activel;y looking at remanining in the industry, or being available.

Nor do I believe that there is so many engineers available that Large companies are "picking and choosing" I know personally of 23 licensed and expereinced (15 to 25 years) engineers that have walked away from the racket! There is way to much insecuriy and uncertainty , and they are tired of it!

There will always be opening at "certain" companies mentioned previously as "picking and choosing"

Over 2o years ago I applied , through a "Head Hunting" company out of Toronto. YESTERDAY, they sent me a message ASKING me to applu for a COUPLE of jobs at Bombardier, In PQ. What's that tell ya?? When one starts getting unsolicited "invitations" to apply to specific companies, there is NO GLUT of engineers applying, nor are employers "picking and choosing!!

I susppect that the industry will continue it's present course, Hiring younger, inexperienced guys and paying them garbage wages. Not there's anything wrong with hiring younger guys. Would be nice though if there were som e experienced people around to mentor them!

But I really don't see that happening, without drastic changes to the industry. Unfortuantely, that ONLY happens after a major incident!!

[Tiredoldcoot]

Acyually I actually applied through that Head Hunter company in May 1992!! That tell ya how far back they're going to fond folks?? WoW!!

[helicopterray]

the companies will just hire people with barely any skills at all and pay them crappy wages and pray that no plane will crash.

We're seeing quite a bit of this now from where I'm sitting.

[PJ1]

Pay me 120K a year, treat me like a human and i'll gladly dust off my M1/M2 and get back in. Until then I'll stay in construction. There is tons of AME's out there doing other things.

[crazy_aviator]

Just look at how AME s are portrayed on Ice pilots ( people actually watch those programs for info on their future career) and you KNOW now WHY they are looking elsewhere, we are our own worst enemies ( aviation)

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

I work for one of the operators mentioned, we shred Aveos resumes. Truth of the matter is nobody wants the union poison infiltrating their hangar. AC/Aveos has had a reputation for decades, and it's not a good one. Keep in mind, this is not necessarily my view but my managements, c'est la vie.
There is no experience in the AME hiring pool, especially on 703/704 ops. The industry has driven the talent away and continues to do so. I earn 6 figures, but it isn't worth it when you are the only ACA amongst a large group, management snaps when something doesn't fly, but all they give you are green apprentices to work with then put the blame on you for not training the juniors properly while not seeing there is no time on the day to conduct any training. The industry is doomed, operators want to make money, there is a lineup of 300hr pilots that stretches around the block willing to work for less than burger king pays, and nobody to properly maintain the machines. But the SMS program will save us all, self regulation couldn't possibly cause problems. Said it before and will say it again, I would rather take the bus even though you run the risk of being decapitated and cannibalized.

[Taiser]

Pay me 120K a year, treat me like a human and i'll gladly dust off my M1/M2 and get back in. Until then I'll stay in construction. There is tons of AME's out there doing other things.

What PJ1 said! Doubt I'd leave my cushy government job for less. There are two of us in my office that left Maintenance and have had ZERO regrets. I do miss playing with planes but compared to the quality of life I've got now, it can't compare. I'll happily keep twisting a wrench on my homebuilt to get my fix!

[Pat Richard]

Companies like North Cariboo, Central Mountain Air, Sunwest, Transwest, West Wind....they have so many people to pick from. Competition is fierce for sure.

The smaller companies up north might feel like there is a shortage of AMEs, but that is because many people don't want to go up there. But if it is a big company like First Air, Canadian North, Air North...they don't have to worry. There will always be people willing to work in the airlines.

Basically, you're completely wrong, Im thinking you're relating the perspective of a pilot.

Canadian North is probably the only exception on that list, but they've managed to pick some real chumps lately also, but whether that's down to slim pickings or an incompetent HR department, I don't know. The rest of the listed companies,CMA in particular, are hardly on any experienced AME's bucket list.
The situations are like TCAS describes at many places and so are the attitudes towards AVEOS resumes.
Unfortunate but true.

[acidgambit]

Hey Pat.

Yea i may be wrong. That is only my opinion and based on what i have heard.
Have a few friends that works in some of the companies listed above and they were telling me that it seemed like HR had no issues finding people. Every time the company puts up job postings there will be 4 to 5 guys rolling their tool boxes in after 2 weeks. Their experience wise...i have no idea. But i am not hearing my buddies complaining, so should be alright.
I believe First Air was just hiring a few AMEs and an apprentice also. And those positions were filled pretty quick.

Yea you and TCAS definitely are right on the Aveos resume shredding. I worked for Aveos and had a hell of a time finding a job. Even with internal references my resume was going into the trash can. It sucks and was frustrating for sure. Ironically, one of the companies mentioned above which i have no internal references was willing to give me a chance, so i am very grateful for that. There were lots of good mechanics in Aveos and they deserve another chance. Although, i understand why the HR in other companies are shredding the resumes. They just don't want to take that chance. Very sad indeed.

[Pat Richard]

I didn't hear about First Air's recent luck, but good for them. What's usually been the issues for northern companies is location and living expense to be in those locations, and that continues. Wages have not kept up, and unless there is staff housing provided(which can really suck btw) it's a tough sell. Im guessing First Air might have landed some Aveos refugees if they did indeed fill the vacancies quickly.

As for ex Aveos guys, yeah, it's not fair, at all. I know there are some really good guys in the mix, but for whatever reason the crap ones are the individuals remembered when it comes time to sort through resumes. I have worked with a few ex aveos guys over the years and out of the 4 I would only recommend one as decent. Decent being able to hit the ground running, work unsupervised, etc.
The other 3 would stand around drinking coffee until summoned, while everyone else was around the workstation, and generally cry for momma as soon as they did not understand the simplest thing. They were good at extending breaks though.
To be fair, I see the same from ex bombardier guys too.

Anyway, maybe road tripping to potential employers might be a means to rise above the bottomfeeders. Don't really know how else to potentially differentiate one's self from that crowd.

Best of Luck.

Pat

[c170b53]

Yeah the Aveos guys are useless, that's why Major airlines come looking. In most cases, it's the skill set that doesn't match the situation. Those that have some time have a few choices. It's been awhile but we could change a 737 PP in 1.5 hrs. from pulling into the hangar to engine start. TCAS if you can do better I bow to you.
I think many HR departments may steer clear of AC high timers who can identify BS the moment it leaves HR lips as their BS often comes in cycles.

[acidgambit]

C17 that's a bit harsh to say that. Not all of the guys were useless. I guess i am saying that cause i used to work there and met a bunch of great mechanics in there.

As for ex-Aveos/AC employees. I recommend that if you have worked some where else before, put the people in those companies down as your references. That is based on my experience. It worked for me. I had 4 references. 2 from a company up north and 2 from AC. Guess who the HR department of the company that hired me called? The 2 guys that i worked with up north. They didn't even call the AC guys.

My theory is, no matter which company you are working for, you bust your ass pushing planes out. The people you work with, they will definitely respect you for that. And you'll be helping yourself in the future if you need another job cause you'll get really good references.

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

It's been awhile but we could change a 737 PP in 1.5 hrs. from pulling into the hangar to engine start. TCAS if you can do better I bow to you.

Whoa there big fella, as stated I have nothing to do with hiring decisions, management does it all. In fact I have never had the chance to work with an ex Aveos/AC wrench because we have never hired one based on the sour reputation that management subscribes to. Like everywhere in aviation, trying to change managements opinions on something is impossible....they are right, everyone else is wrong.

[c170b53]

Aveos was a sham; those that chose to stay in many cases didn't have a choice. The amount of expertise that was thrown out is beyond comprehension. It was the only facility(west coast), I believe in NA that Boeing (other than themselves) had deemed capable to perform 767 pylon ad repairs.
A good crew is a group that has a variety of individual capabilities thus not every person fits, its the group that counts. Some can go solo, some can't so not everyone will work out in a specific situation.
I'm sorry if I bristle when I hear derogatory comments about the capacity of individuals whom few have had a chance to work with. Ultimately the real sad story remains; once those hands are gone, its gone but the ability to shuffle paper.....

[seamus]

Back to the subject of AME shortage, it hasn't really hit yet but it's definitely coming. Some branches of our industry will feel it sooner than others but in the end everyone will be affected. Paradoxically, it will help to improve overall working conditions for all those still remaining in the biz.

I've been seeing a definite age shift in the multi-engine IFR helicopter side of things for some time now. Our guys generally don't get as easily worked up about things, as other GA branches, and as a result tend stick with their profession until the end. However for every 4-5 guys that leave the industry (retire, walk away, etc) maybe one new AME starts.

Schools may be matching the numbers of those departing with those newly graduated but how many of those stay in the industry for more than 5 years. I don't know the exact figures country-wide but of the people I graduated with 15 years ago there are maybe, maybe 15-20% still left doing it, I mean actually working on aircraft.

Reasons for this situation are many, but generally speaking I see that the new generation of AMEs have much lower tolerance for the BS factor as a result they tend to walk away much more easily. Unfortunately there's no fast and easy way to get experience in this line of work. My current employer will rarely hire anyone with less than 10 years of experience as an AME, they should also have at least of the types we operate already on their license. As a result the youngest guy on my crew is 35, there are few in their 40s and a whole lot of guys in their 50s.

To sum it up the shortage is on its way, in 5-10 years this industry will look a lot different. If by then you're still here doing it, the salaries should reflect the growing demand for the dwindling talent pool. It's just not possible to ship everything off to S.America for third party work

cheers

[sled]

Hey Pat,
What "chumps" at Canadian North are you refering to? I'am an AME and I work at Canadian North, are you a little upset that you did not get my job?

[Pat Richard]

I've never applied there, but I know a few people there, they talk about some of the recent additions, and the reviews aren't glowing.

Are you a little insecure in the possibility you might one of the ones that have been mentioned, lol?

Really hope you figure it out, but I really don't give a phuk either way.

[sled]

Nope not insecure about it at all been working here for a few years if you need to know. Just think it is funny that some ass monkey on a forum makes a flippant comment about people he knows nothing about. Swing by my office anytime and I will take you around to meet everyone.

[Pat Richard]

Really, you've been working at CN for a few years and your behind a desk??

If that's true then comment you made in another thread on Jan 9/2012 is confusing.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=77421&p=739060#p739060

I don't think that the market is that dried up, my un-updated resume has been on monster for a few years and I still get calls. Also I work for the biggest MRO in the country and due to us being sold off to the highest bidder and guys refusing to come to work for the new employer we have many openings that cannot be filled, thus I am working overtime more now.

Canadian North was the largest Canadian MRO in Jan 2012 and was also sold to the highest bidder? You also mention in the same thread having to go on out of town jobs once in awhile with like 80 hrs overtime. Most desk jockeys that I've seen don't go rescue airplanes, they have minions for that.
You also claim to have gotten your M2 in 2006, working on metros, yet you claim to have a office position with a company operating Dhc-8 and 737's, supposedly in maintenance. Im thinking maybe you're in HR or a receptionist for HR because it's hard to believe that with, at most, 5.5 years with an M2 you would be in any other kind of office.

Me thinks you're full of shit, assmonkey.

Oh yeah, I never said I didn't know any of the recent hires and 2 of them are barely quik lube capable, so no retraction.

[sled]

Pat for a person that runs his mouth off all over this website you don't know much. If you knew much you would have known that Aveos provided the 737 maintenance for Canadian North since start up (Air Canada for the first few years if being correct is what is required). Canadian North hired the lot of us to continue providing maintenance for them when Aveos tanked, and I took a promotion after being hired myself. Yes I still go out of town to rescue planes, was up north a few months back as a matter of fact, the OT is quite nice. And yes I do spend most of my shift behind a desk, but my toolbox is out with the rest of them. Like I said stop by if you want to see the operation, how it is growing, and meet the guys. Post a reply or not I "don't give a pcuk "


Back to the subject of this thread,
The shortage of AME's is the fault of the industry itself as there is no industry standard for pay, (employers just post an amount), and companies like AC feel it is more cost effective to fly to China for work. But that being said there is always someone out there that will rush out to work for $20 an hour to please their employer.

[Pat Richard]

Maybe if you if would've just said you did 3rd party maintenance instead of claiming to have worked for AN for two year's I wouldn't have called bullshit. But you didn't, and the truth is that you have worked for CN for less than 6 months. Also just because you do paperwork at a desk doesn't mean you have a office.

I was very well aware of aveos in edmonton doing maintenance work for AN, and then leaving them stranded when they closed the doors. I was told the DOM was working stores afterward for a bit and that they rehired several aveos guys. Maybe your one of them.