anonymity wrote:Well, I guess they could have just bent over and took it with the crowbar that was offered.
I'm not part of this but some still antagonize by saying things like," Without crunching the numbers too much, just based on my seniority, I would think had they taken BOTL they would be holding left seat 330 now. Maybe even left seat 777."
The above should be used to determine the amount of damages awarded.
I was just answering a question someone had asked.
Anyway, the Picher List would never have been implemented anyway. Hollis Harris was the Air Canada CEO at the time. He was not going to allow a merged list.
Here is an excerpt from Madam Pepall's decision.
"Mr. Harris, now retired, was the CEO of Air Canada at the relevant time and was a credible and forceful witness. He also had had considerable experience in the airline business and with mergers. He was unequivocal in his evidence that he had the authority to decide whether to accept the Award and that he would not. 'It would have been a financial disaster for Air Canada,' he said... While it may be that some Air Canada management representatives were prepared to discuss a merged list, this does not supplant Mr. Harris' firm conviction that a merged list was unacceptable. He was the decision maker. 'As he testified, 'We could not operate the mainline carrier with a seniority list that had all the Connector pilots on it.'... I reject the Plaintiffs' contention that Mr. Harris had lack of recall that impeded his ability to provide reliable evidence. He was an impressive witness who made no effort to reconstruct events.... his evidence was not impeached and indeed, Plaintiffs' counsel did not even try to impeach his testimony."
[Paragraphs 459, 460]
Lots of debate on the other forum about whether there is an agenda to merge (DOH or BOTL) with our bros and sis's at Jazz. Found this.
I think it's relevant because MR will have to decide if AC is going to allow it or not. HH said no way.
Just think of it as one last gift from the legacy of KV and MM to “Capture the Flying” and improve the conditions later…
I was just answering a question someone had asked.
Anyway, the Picher List would never have been implemented anyway. Hollis Harris was the Air Canada CEO at the time. He was not going to allow a merged list.
Here is an excerpt from Madam Pepall's decision.
"Mr. Harris, now retired, was the CEO of Air Canada at the relevant time and was a credible and forceful witness. He also had had considerable experience in the airline business and with mergers. He was unequivocal in his evidence that he had the authority to decide whether to accept the Award and that he would not. 'It would have been a financial disaster for Air Canada,' he said... While it may be that some Air Canada management representatives were prepared to discuss a merged list, this does not supplant Mr. Harris' firm conviction that a merged list was unacceptable. He was the decision maker. 'As he testified, 'We could not operate the mainline carrier with a seniority list that had all the Connector pilots on it.'... I reject the Plaintiffs' contention that Mr. Harris had lack of recall that impeded his ability to provide reliable evidence. He was an impressive witness who made no effort to reconstruct events.... his evidence was not impeached and indeed, Plaintiffs' counsel did not even try to impeach his testimony."
[Paragraphs 459, 460]
Lots of debate on the other forum about whether there is an agenda to merge (DOH or BOTL) with our bros and sis's at Jazz. Found this.
I think it's relevant because MR will have to decide if AC is going to allow it or not. HH said no way.
Just think of it as one last gift from the legacy of KV and MM to “Capture the Flying” and improve the conditions later…
-Jimmy
For what it’s worth, I have not heard a single Jazz pilot talk about this in reference to AC pilots joining/merging with ALPA.
Only when they talk about being passed by for OTS and even then it’s few who’ve mentioned it.
Honestly, even if AC were to buy Jazz, I would prefer to keep my spot on my list, medium fish in a medium pond, instead of small fish in a big pond…with only 400ish above me, I should be top 50 before I retire, not on your list though
cdnavater wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:57 am
For what it’s worth, I have not heard a single Jazz pilot talk about this in reference to AC pilots joining/merging with ALPA.
Only when they talk about being passed by for OTS and even then it’s few who’ve mentioned it.
Honestly, even if AC were to buy Jazz, I would prefer to keep my spot on my list, medium fish in a medium pond, instead of small fish in a big pond…with only 400ish above me, I should be top 50 before I retire, not on your list though
Jazz ran under the banner of AC regional and before that Air BC, Air Ontario, Air Alliance and Air Nova. All were wholly owned subsidiaries of AC prior to CCAA. In fact the environment H Harris is quoted in above, is from when these companies were wholly owned.
Harris’s comment.
It would have been a financial disaster for Air Canada,' he said
Air Canada’s cost structure can not run under a certain seat number viably. AC needs a feeder airline. If AC lost Jazz’s cost structure it would need to create another regional. They won’t be doing this voluntarily.
cdnavater wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:57 am
For what it’s worth, I have not heard a single Jazz pilot talk about this in reference to AC pilots joining/merging with ALPA.
Only when they talk about being passed by for OTS and even then it’s few who’ve mentioned it.
Honestly, even if AC were to buy Jazz, I would prefer to keep my spot on my list, medium fish in a medium pond, instead of small fish in a big pond…with only 400ish above me, I should be top 50 before I retire, not on your list though
Jazz ran under the banner of AC regional and before that Air BC, Air Ontario, Air Alliance and Air Nova. All were wholly owned subsidiaries of AC prior to CCAA. In fact the environment H Harris is quoted in above, is from when these companies were wholly owned.
Harris’s comment.
It would have been a financial disaster for Air Canada,' he said
Air Canada’s cost structure can not run under a certain seat number viably. AC needs a feeder airline. If AC lost Jazz’s cost structure it would need to create another regional. They won’t be doing this voluntarily.
That’s what they want you to believe, US airlines are paying their regional pilots more than AC pilots and their cost structure seems to work.
cdnavater wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:57 am
For what it’s worth, I have not heard a single Jazz pilot talk about this in reference to AC pilots joining/merging with ALPA.
Only when they talk about being passed by for OTS and even then it’s few who’ve mentioned it.
Honestly, even if AC were to buy Jazz, I would prefer to keep my spot on my list, medium fish in a medium pond, instead of small fish in a big pond…with only 400ish above me, I should be top 50 before I retire, not on your list though
Jazz ran under the banner of AC regional and before that Air BC, Air Ontario, Air Alliance and Air Nova. All were wholly owned subsidiaries of AC prior to CCAA. In fact the environment H Harris is quoted in above, is from when these companies were wholly owned.
Harris’s comment.
It would have been a financial disaster for Air Canada,' he said
Air Canada’s cost structure can not run under a certain seat number viably. AC needs a feeder airline. If AC lost Jazz’s cost structure it would need to create another regional. They won’t be doing this voluntarily.
That’s what they want you to believe, US airlines are paying their regional pilots more than AC pilots and their cost structure seems to work.
So long as they can pass along the cost to the consumer. Others routes are repatriated by increasing the size of the aircraft and reducing frequency. Often that doesn’t work and routes get abandoned.
Pilot wages are only a piece of CASM. A small piece.
Higher regional wages will incentivize less jobs at the regionals. With that said regionals are still required. The western US and Canada are not Europe. 80 seat aircraft are still required and can not viably run under the cost structure of a mainline.
Legacy airlines are not going to abandon the 80 seat market in North America. Nor can they do it cost effectively in house.
I see that this thread has been resurrected. Please note that the links in the first few pages are no longer valid, as I shut down the Fly Past 60 web site several years ago. You can find the cases referred to in those links by searching www.canlii.org, which is the legal database created by the Law Societies across Canada.
