Ottawa Citizen story on aircraft procurment for Snowbirds .

[bizjets101]

Ottawa Citizen story on Snowbird aircraft replacement.


CAF image/Kevin Lim

[Taiser]

It's in the Star as well. What the hell does the press want? These planes have been around for what? 40 years+ ? Seems like we got our worth out of them!

[skymarc]

Use the old CF18 or a new fleet of Beech Texan II, do we use any here for training?

[grimey]

The obvious answer is to use the CT-155 Hawk, since that's what we replaced the Tutor with.

[grimey]

Use the old CF18 or a new fleet of Beech Texan II, do we use any here for training?

We use the Texan II (CT-156 Harvard II) for training, yes. But from the article, looks like neither the CF-18 or the harvard are on the list:

Using CF-18s would increase the ability of the Snowbirds to perform around the world but reduce their availability for smaller venues in Canada that have runways too short to accommodate the jets, the air force concluded. In addition, the CF-18s would be 20 times more expensive to operate than the Tutors.

The air force also drew the line at cutting the Snowbirds formation back to four aircraft. “A four aircraft team would have very little flexibility in display manoeuvres and therefore in entertainment value,” according to air force documents previously obtained by the Citizen. “Four aircraft, regardless of type, would have a harmful effect to the Snowbirds’ image.”

The Canadian Forces also looked at the use of propeller aircraft for the Snowbirds. But an examination of that option noted that other military aerobatic teams who have switched from jets to propeller-driven planes have seen a drop in attendance at their air demonstrations.

[Vickers vanguard]

is it that hard to choose an airplane.......just like the red arrows, use the Hawk for god sake, and get over with it. Now, they'll spend millions doing bullshit studies to figure out what airplane they need.

[Colonel Sanders]

Ok. No modern aircraft (teen fighter or later). No prop aircraft.
No east-bloc aircraft.

What's left?

They would never do it, but I would hire someone to IRAN five
nice Canadair-built Sabres. Wouldn't cost much. Lots of them
are still flying. Doesn't need much runway - I could land one in
4000 feet.

You could also IRAN some Canadair-built F-104's. Too expensive?
How do these guys do it, then?

http://www.starfighters.net

Heck, they're already operating a bunch of ex-Canadian F-104's.

[iflyforpie]

Why not IRAN the Tutors? There aren't any aircraft that are as distinctly Canadian to fit the bill and surely could be kept going for far less than anything else. We spent all that money modernizing the CT-133s ten years ago and they are Wright Brothers compared to the Tutor.

[Colonel Sanders]

Remember a few years back, the billions spent
on the F-5's, which were immediately disposed
of afterwards?

Five Canadian-built F-5's would do nicely, too.
Nice looking aircraft:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadair_CF-5

[grimey]

is it that hard to choose an airplane.......just like the red arrows, use the Hawk for god sake, and get over with it. Now, they'll spend millions doing bullshit studies to figure out what airplane they need.

Well since they've budgeted a rather exact figure ($755M), I'm guessing they'll get yelled at for another reason: they already picked the aircraft, and are sole-sourcing it.

Which in this case isn't bad, because there are some very obvious and proven options. It's not like with the F-35, where we need these all these evolving capabilities and it needs to stand up to future threats. We need an airframe that will last for 40 years and has similar or better aerobatic capabilities to the Tutor.

I think the L-159s they were offered a few years ago would be cool, but I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

[Colonel Sanders]

Politically anything east bloc is a non-starter
regardless of technical merit.

[Beefitarian]

Aerodrome #4s ?

[Old Dog Flying]

CDS: "You guys wanna keep the Snowbirds? Get a Sponsor and buy your own aircraft!."

[YYZSaabGuy]

You could also IRAN some Canadair-built F-104's

OK, gotta ask, since I'm not familiar with that acronym: what does "IRAN" mean?

[Learning2Fly]

Pretty certain he means:

I.R.A.N. = Inspect, Repair as Needed

[Moose47]

G'day

I.R.A.N. - Inspect and Repair As Necessary

Cheers...Chris

[YYZSaabGuy]

Great, guys, thanks to both of you.

[Human Factor]

Remember a few years back, the billions spent
on the F-5's, which were immediately disposed
of afterwards?

Five Canadian-built F-5's would do nicely, too.
Nice looking aircraft:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadair_CF-5

Don't we still have some of these in mothballs somewhere? Perfect choice IMHO.

[Human Factor]

CDS: "You guys wanna keep the Snowbirds? Get a Sponsor and buy your own aircraft!."

Not a bad idea. You could certainly get a fleet of Extra 300's for considerably less than $755M!

[Shiny Side Up]

Remember a few years back, the billions spent
on the F-5's, which were immediately disposed
of afterwards?

Five Canadian-built F-5's would do nicely, too.
Nice looking aircraft:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadair_CF-5

Indeed, they seem to work well for the Turks in that role, maybe we could just buy some of them back too.

[jeta1]

We cut surveillance of air operators, drinking water safety, food safety, research into emerging technologies that affect safety, and we layoff thousands of people doing that critical work.... But we need to keep a cash-cow of ego-inflated flyboys on the pretense that it helps recruitment.... Wow... Have you tried to join the CF lately? They don't need and won't need recruitment for the next 50 years. Sorry to say and all due respect to Dan Dempsey et al, the taxpayers can no longer afford or justify the Snowbirds, nor the RCMP horse and doggie show. The Michael Potters of this world do a fine job at putting privately organized air shows.

[Beefitarian]

I really hate to agree with you jeta because I like to watch airplanes fly around and draw hearts with smoke but you're right.

Why don't they at least reduce it to a 4 or 5 plane thing, run the same planes as the fighter squadrons or a training unit? Then if those planes and pilots are needed for something else off they go.

[Colonel Sanders]

Don't we still have some of these (CF-5's) in mothballs somewhere?

They've been slowly dribbling away over the decades. Not
sure how many are left, but five of them, suitably overhauled
would make a splendid, economical built-in-Canada choice.

Which is why it will never be done.

a fleet of Extra 300's

Not sure you were listening. Only banana republics have
prop aircraft for their military formation team. And even
banana republics can afford turbines, not piston.

It can't have props. Gotta be a jet. Can't afford anything
new. Can't use anything east bloc. Can't use anything old.

[lownslow]

Do it with drones. You have a relatively cheap aircraft, show off your country's technical prowess and to the best of my knowledge nobody else has done it yet. Keep the large formations the Snowbirds are known for and throw em all in the back of a Herc between shows. You can cut the plane to plane safety margins way down and the occasional crashes will be costly and embarrassing but not family-destroying. Better yet, once they start getting long in the tooth and need disposal anyways you can have them shoot each other down in front of thousands of spectators.

I'm not even sure if I'm joking here...

LnS.

[Grantmac]

I like the CF-5 idea, or the Sabre. Something with a little national pride without the pricetag.