Pilots Are Among The Best Occupations With Salaries ^60K?

[200Above]

Came across this:
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article ... s-over-60k

It states that Pilots are ranked 48th in a list of the best occupations in which salaries are over 60K. (Remember this, it's important)

The quick facts are:
1) Average Salary is $66,664
2) 3% rise of employees to this category
3) 19% rise in wages between 2006-2011

I first thought alright, there was only a 3% increase to the number of pilots meeting the 60K minimum, but of us who are already here, we experienced a 19% increase to our salaries.

I then looked at the numbers harder. When it says we experienced a 3% increase to the 60K category all it really means is that only 3% of us moved up from what we made before to at least 60K. This has nothing to do with employees entering the industry as getting your first job right out of flight training and making 60K is next to impossible. Unlike other occupations like Economists who probably enter the industry very close to to 60K (if not at 60K) misleads the public into thinking that pilots can easily make at least 60K when in fact, we spent about 4-5 years at the below 60K mark (yes, I know). So of all the new pilots that enter the industry per year, only 3 % of the whole pilot group enter into the 60K range. Pretty disheartening. It's just as bad when you consider that inflation alone (and the methodology at the bottom doesn't specify, but I'll assume wasn't taken into account) would account for about 9-10% of the increase to wages. This leaves about a ~9% increase in 5 years. Again, pretty piss poor.

Im no stats major but this is just what I take from the article. Anyone see other 'snapshots' of our industry?

[moocow]

From an public perspective, this can be very misleading. What kind of pilots did they interview? What segment of the industry did the interview? What qualifies as pilots in their survey, do they count instructors that work 3 jobs?

[Ref Plus 10]

In Denmark, Pilots are regarded as one of the top 3 respected "professions", according to a study conducted recently.

[Meatservo]

Before your 3% figure means anything to me, I would like to find out what percentage of the overall pilot pool is composed of new guys, and what percentage retires every year. What I mean is, if for the sake of argument, less than 3% of all pilots are RETIRING every year, then the fact that 3% of us every year are reaching that level in our careers every year works out pretty evenly. In fact, doesn't that three percent figure mean that if every year 3% of pilots are rising past the various benchmarks in their respective careers, then it would take approximately 33 years for one person to complete the entire cycle? I don't know... I'm reading a book called "how to lie with statistics". I haven't gotten very far in it yet, but one thing I have learned is that you can't trust 'em.

[ajet32]

Pilots in North America, Canada and the United States have seen a steady decline in both their salaries,working conditions and the level of respect they receive since the mid to late 1980's. In the US it began with the mergers, take overs and failures of large long standing carriers like Eastern Airlines and Pan American and the merger of many small regional jet operators into larger national operators.
Then came the Regional; first with turboprops , then regional jets and now you see carriers like Comair ceasing operations this month. This is the way of the future in North America. The flying public wants the best fare and that results in the lowest cost bidder getting the work.
I recently looked up advance fares on both of the two major carriers flying between YEG and YYZ. I flew that route in September 1980 for $435 with an open return.( taxes were $16) now taxes excluded you can almost find that same fare if you are flexible on your travel dates. I don't know of anything else that is the same price as in 1980.
I don't have any answers or solutions except to say I am no longer working in Canada. My pay is double, I get treated with respect and dignity, I am accorded a crew gate and minimal security inspections. All things that were common place throughout Canada and the US 28 years ago when I started in this business.

[Dh8Classic]

But in 1980, the industry was regulated and prices were really high compared to now. Much fewer people flew due to ticket prices and therefore much less airline pilot jobs. Therefore, the jobs flying cool aircraft were reserved pretty much for the ex-military guys and their buddies. Civilian guy like me with no post secondary education and poor uncorrected vision.....not much chance. Now, there are way more jobs for guys like me thanks to deregulation and I get to fly the really cool machines. Awesome. Sure, AC doesn't pay the equivalent of what they used to but the new world is definitely worth it for me...but not for the clique of guys that would have benefited from the old way.

Plus, I can go YYZ-YEG for $435 bucks.

[Colonel Sanders]

I don't know of anything else that is the same price as in 1980.

Today you spend far less money to get far more desktop
computer (thousands of times more computer) than you
did in 1980.

This is true of both hardware and software.

Also - in 1980, what would home fast internet access cost?
If you had phoned up Bell in 1980 and asked for fractional T3
to your house, they would have laughed and laughed.

And in 1980, what would an iPhone have cost? The CIA
didn't have anything like it - including the hardware, software
and cell phone tower/network infrastructure - regardless
of the billions you might be prepared to spend.

Let's say in 1980 that you wanted an electronically-controlled
fuel-injection system on your car or motorcycle. Not available
at any price. Motorcycles sucked in 1980 compared to today.

Cars sucked in 1980. Compare a 1980 Corvette with a
ZR-1. Compare a Mustang II (Pinto) with a 2012 Shelby
GT500. Foreign stuff was equally junky in 1980.

Let's say in 1980 that you wanted GPS, ANR headsets and a
huge glass panel on your 172/182 or homebuilt. Yeah, you
couldn't get that, either.

Let's say you wanted to buy an economical, reliable piston
helicopter that would carry 4 people. In 1980, everyone
would laugh at you. Today you buy an R44.

I couldn't get a 3-blade composite prop at any price in 1980.
It's revolutionized the aerobatics we can fly without breaking
the crankshaft. Compare the all-composite MX2 today with
the top-of-the line aerobatic aircraft in 1980 - no comparison!

There are many, many things that are thousands of times
cheaper/better than they were in 1980. Don't give me the
crap about the "Good Old Days" - I lived through them, too.

I chuckled when someone mentioned Air Canada being in
aviation for 75 years - my grandfather soloed 95 years ago,
and aeroplanes were total pieces of sh1t back then.

[MrWings]

Here are some jobs from that list ranked higher than pilot:

16 Electrical power line and cable worker
19 Dental hygienist
33 Librarian
37 Pipefitter

Are the bars on your white shirt drooping a bit lower now?

[Mig29]

No wonder many pilots are dating nurses/dental assistants/hygienist.

Time to hit on hot and sexy librarian boys

Btw: Does anyone know what the average total deducations pilots pay with that salary survey??

[Gear Jerker]

Those are fantastic!!!

[Beefitarian]

I go to the library. That's like a picture of a unicorn. Doesn't matter how realistic she looks, she's not a real librarian.

I bet she hates pilots too.

[ajet32]

At the risk of turning this into a you know what contest. The point I was trying to make: was ticket prices and pilot salaries are two things that have changed very little since 1980. I had never even seen a desktop or heard of the internet in1980. While I have no doubt some had I just wished to illustrate that a pilots pay and working conditions are worse in North America now than in 1980. Yes there are a great many more jobs flying at regionals but at what cost. The good old days if they ever existed then only exist out side of Canada and the US now.
Flame away.

[mbav8r]

Let's call it what it is, "Walmartization of aviation" wikipedia calls it "walmarting"
The term "Walmarting" derives from debate over Wal-Mart's business practices, which effectively apply optimization concepts from logistics, purchasing and finance to achieve and maintain low prices.[citation needed].

More generally, "Walmarting" refers to the spread of Wal-Mart's business model to other big-box retailers throughout the American economy, and the national or global implications of that proliferation.

The Wal-Mart business model includes: marketing to a broad "family" demographic that includes rural as well as urban, ethnic minorities as well as mainstream, people without a higher-level education, lower- or working-class consumers, as well as the middle-class; one-stop shopping based on a very large selection of goods and services; the use of intense price-competition and high-technology inventory management to stimulate and satisfy end-user demand; extreme economies of scale based on big-box delivery of consumables; aggressive supply-chain management that requires producers to reduce their costs significantly to find an outlet for their goods; employment of store workers for low wages, few benefits, and little job security to reduce overhead.[5]
"India has experienced a similar phenomenon, with significant negative ramifications for its economy"
Also from wikipedia, since we're talking about the 80s,
In the 1980s, Walmart continued to grow rapidly, and by its 25th anniversary in 1987 there were 1,198 stores with sales of $15.9 billion and 200,000 associates.
now, Walmart has 8,500 stores in 15 countries, under 55 different names
I wonder how many good paying jobs have been lost since the rapid growth started in the 80s...

[Colonel Sanders]

was ticket prices and pilot salaries are two things that have changed very little since 1980

At the risk of being crapped on ... the pilot in 1980 was
creating about the same amount of value as the pilot
in 2010. Same number of pax seats, for example.

If we look at computers, which have gotten 1000
times faster since 1980, that's 1000x the value added -
and the COMPUTER IS CHEAPER!

If you were flying 1000x as many pax as in 1980 and
your salary had decreased - which is exactly the case
in the computer industry - you'd probably be unhappy.

Fact: desktop computer comparison, 1980 vs 2010:

- 1000x as powerful CPU
- 1000x as much RAM
- 1000x as much hard disk
- 1000x as graphical power (vs text mode)
- smaller
- one tenth the price

That's a lot of value added over 30 years. And pilots
are still flying the same number of pounds the same
distance.

[mbav8r]

Give up on your computer analogy, it's not the same thing! Cars are far more technologically advanced from 1980 and the price has gone up significantly since.
We're talking about how, to get more bums in seats you have to reduce the cost to get bums in those seats, see my post above. One way to reduce cost is to pay less for the same labour, again see my post above and compare wages to Safeway of the past and Walmart supercentres of today!

[mbav8r]

To the original topic, I made 60,000 once in my career after 5 years in the industry, then that company went under(must of been paying me too much), then the next job paid 45,000 for the same job. I am now after 17 fricken years in this god forsaken industry going to break 60,000 again this year. Let's hope they're not paying me too much, because if I have to start over, with 17 years and 11,000 hours or so, it will likely be alot less than 60,000!!!!!

[cj555]

Came across this:
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article ... s-over-60k

It states that Pilots are ranked 48th in a list of the best occupations in which salaries are over 60K. (Remember this, it's important)

The quick facts are:
1) Average Salary is $66,664
2) 3% rise of employees to this category
3) 19% rise in wages between 2006-2011

When it says we experienced a 3% increase to the 60K category all it really means is that only 3% of us moved up from what we made before to at least 60K.

That is incorrect. I think there is some confusion about what these numbers mean.

There are three categories:

1. % growth in number of employees (2006 to 2011): 3%
This means that between 2006 & 2011, there was a 3% growth in the pilot workforce (ie there were 3% more pilot jobs created).

2. Median annual salary (2011): $66,664
This means that half the pilot workforce makes more then $66,664 and half the pilot work for makes less then $66,664

3. % change in salary (2006 to 2011): 19%
This means that the median compensation has grown by 19% since 2006 (on average, pilots wages have increased by 19% since 2006). As an example: In 2006, the median pilot wages were 19% lower meaning that in 2006 half the pilots made more then $56,020 and half the pilots made less than $56,020.

The final rank was based by putting different weight on each criteria:
50% on job growth
40% to median compensation
10% to change in compensation


What is interesting is if you change the ranking order. So much weight was placed on job growth, and that is why pilot was ranked 48th out of 50. There is almost no growth potential in the pilot industry, that is the main reason for it having such a low ranking.

If you rank it according to % change in salary (highest to lowest): Pilot comes in at 16/50
If you rank it according to median annual salary (highest to lowest): Pilot comes in at 31/50

Very interesting article!

[donttakeshi*]

Thanks for mentioning that cj555. I remember reading that article a few months back and noticed that it was speaking of the mean wage and not the average. BIG difference. I'll bet the average wage is a lot higher than $66000, although that would be entirely misleading. You could have 2 guys, one makes $20,000/year and another making $180,000/year. The guy making $20,000/year would be right pissed to hear that the average wage is $100,000/year.

[co-joe]

#3 is "Electrical & telecommunications contactor"

WTF is an electrical contactor with respect to a profession?

Nice to see pilot comes in almost dead last on the list.

[howard40]

It cost 525 dollars in 1971 for me to go to england on a stretch DC8. It was a charter therefore cheaper. My mom and dad had to join some club from Kitchener (ladies aux to legiion or similar) to qualify, as charters were strictly controlled as "charters" and cheaper!
free gum! from a tray! had never seen anything like it .
and lots of mt seats at the back.
pilot asked us to sit in forward seats for takeoff then go wherever we wanted once airborne.
lots of smoking going on, I was 12 yrs old...
cockpit door was open for most of the flight and since it was full of "older women" my brother and I got to wander forward and ask questions of a polite and obliging flight crew, sit on the jump seat for 20 mins at a time, etc.
I said "take me to cuba" (was topical in 1970) while boarding (goofy kid!) and the head FA said "who said that" then laughed at me...
try any of that these days, and tell me its better now..........
I wore wool slacks and a white shirt, black shoes and tie just like my mom told me to....
the pilots wandered around once an hour or so saying hi and stretching their legs... and I seem to recall a flight engineer in the front too....they were practically small g gods to me....
Oh, one more thing , it was air canada .........

[Colonel Sanders]

FYI $525 in 1971 is $3,000 in 2012, according
to the Bank of Canada. Not sure what that means,
but there it is.

[Expat]

525 dollars were one month's salary for a sub-lieutenant. I think they make more than $3000 today.