Eagle Jet International / Pay to Fly

[stall recovery]

This is not a thread discussing the morality of pay to fly.

How do major airlines in Canada and around the world view pay to fly pilots ?
Do airlines frown upon pilots who have ever paid to fly in their career ?
How would an airline even know if the flight hours in question were obtained through pay to fly (if the pay to fly scheme ends with a job) ?

Does anyone have any direct or indirect experience with eagle jet international ? specifically, their line training programs that offer guaranteed employment once you complete the training.
Is it just a scam or do you actually end up with a job at the end ?

Thanks for your help everyone.

[Nark]

I have the privilege of interviewing pilot candidates for my airline.

If I see something on their application/resume that warrants more information, I will ask them to explain it further.
There aren't many pay to play companies out there.
Guess what my reccomendation will be to HR?

[delay256]

Nark is quite right in saying there aren't many companies that offer Pay to Fly schemes. I think Eagle Jet has an agreement with AmeriFlight for their Beech 1900 Programs. It will be quite obvious that you have paid for the Type Rating and Line training. It might be best to be up front about it.

I dont see why you should be penalized for it if you meet the companies requirements for experience. Its becoming more and more common and with demand increasing, employers are going to look at experience and skill rather than how you got the time or where you got time.

[ea306]

Paying for a type Rating is common in Europe...especially for freshly minted Frozen JAA ATPL license holders looking for their first flying contract to get some hours and a paycheck. Often their first aircraft type will be an A320 or a B737NG.

Traditionally the cost of type rating a Licensed Pilot is an operational cost to be absorbed by an airline. Some view the cost of a type rating as all part of getting the minimum qualifications to be employable. That issue in itself will get people going........

HOWEVER:
To pay to get actual experience on an aircraft type further offends the sense of right and wrong; or maybe should I say it offends the moral sense of your fellow aviators.

Companies that charge money to its pilots to crew their airplanes are taking the exploitation of desparate pilots to a whole new level.

Those that may be tempted to participate in such a program are doing so in hopes that the few hours gained will assist them in jump starting their career.

Most pilots on an interview panel will NOT view Paying to fly an Airline Transport Aircraft for an Aircarrier as AN INTERNSHIP. This facade of a training organization is an unscrupulous company taking advantage of young pilots who cannot see the wrongfulness of being involved in such a program to further their careers at any cost....even foregoing a salary and then paying the airline to fly their aircraft.

The race to the bottom has found a new low and just hit the bedrock in my mind.

I think Nark succinctly expresses how a good many pilots in Canada would view anyone who is willing to literally sell themselves out....what would stop an individual like that from selling everyone else out around them? An interviewer asks themselves when they interview a pilot: "Would I want to spend a long day or number of days in a row flying with this individual?". If the interviewer is if the opinion that you have no moral values and would sell out your colleagues to advantage yourself; then I think an individual taking this approach will come across some career limiting obstacles.

A program as this erodes the working conditions for everyone in this profession. It is just simply wrong.

IMHO

[looproll]

How do major airlines in Canada and around the world view pay to fly pilots ?

In Canada, see Nark's post, as most professional pilots 'round these parts have come up through the ranks without paying to fly. I would frown upon it.

How would an airline even know if the flight hours in question were obtained through pay to fly (if the pay to fly scheme ends with a job) ?

If you list it on your resume, they will know. If you don't list it and then it comes up, it will look like you're trying to hide it. Either way, I wouldn't feel too good about that on my record.

Does anyone have any direct or indirect experience with eagle jet international ?

I don't because no one I know in the industry has ever done anything like it. That being said, you gotta do what's right for you.

[pelmet]

Apperently. they were providing pilots for an Indonesian carrier called Lion Air which is expanding like crazy with 737-900's and they also have a couple of 747-400's. The forums have nothing but bad news about this company from working conditions to safety record. But I think the contract fell apart. Not sure who else the were supplying.

[Eric Janson]

How do major airlines in Canada and around the world view pay to fly pilots ?

Most Airlines don't care - as long as you have the hours and can get through the selection then they're happy.

Do airlines frown upon pilots who have ever paid to fly in their career ?

See above

How would an airline even know if the flight hours in question were obtained through pay to fly (if the pay to fly scheme ends with a job) ?

See above

Is it just a scam or do you actually end up with a job at the end ?

The way this works is you buy a Type Rating and a number of hours. After that you get kicked out and another P2F (pay to fly) candidate takes your job. The idea is that with time on type you will be able to obtain a paying job on that aircraft Type.

There are no guarantees - all the risk is yours.

I have been debating the LionAir contract on another Forum.

They have a history of runway excursions and over-runs including 2 in one week at the same airport. Indonesia has a lot of terrain/poorly equipped airports with runways that are short for the latest generation of jets/weather is frequently poor. This is a lethal combination when you add inexperienced crew into the mix. You are also dealing with a culture where a go-around is a loss of face and it isn't acceptable to question any decision made by a superior.

LionAir has also forged the 6 month recurrent Sim checks as they know guys are out after 500 hours.

There is a reason why all Indonesian carriers (except Garuda) are on the EU blacklist.

I won't fly with any Indonesian carrier.

There are no shortage of people willing to expose themselves to this. There are no jobs in Europe (even with 500 hours 737 experience) but that hasn't stopped anyone.

Entry level terms and conditions are now extremely poor as a result of the rise of P2F schemes. Even an Airline like EasyJet is hiring new Pilots on significantly lower terms and conditions.

Even my terms and conditions are continually under threat. I am presently trying to stop them reducing my leave from 36 days to 28 days.

@stall recovery

Hope this answers some of your questions

[mbav8r]

This is not a thread discussing the morality of pay to fly.
How do major airlines in Canada and around the world view pay to fly pilots ?
Do airlines frown upon pilots who have ever paid to fly in their career ?
How would an airline even know if the flight hours in question were obtained through pay to fly (if the pay to fly scheme ends with a job) ?

Does anyone have any direct or indirect experience with eagle jet international ? specifically, their line training programs that offer guaranteed employment once you complete the training.
Is it just a scam or do you actually end up with a job at the end ?

How is it not about the morality of "pay to fly"? Your first three questions speak directly to whether or not it will be viewed as morally wrong, your last two questions seem to be weighing whether or not you can accept the risk vs reward for a morally wrong choice.
In my opinion, you already know it's wrong but you're of low moral character and are looking for someone who has done it and did not suffer the consequences you feel possible, to justify doing it.
I'm not going to make it any easier for you, I was a C.P and would not have hired you had I known or even suspected you went this route. It speaks volumes about your character and what level you would stoop to. It is also a very good indicator of the kind of employee you would be, you know the kind that would get a type rating and leave the next day for greener grass, or the kind who would likely step on a fellow employee to get ahead.
I say go for it! and I will just hope you get whats coming to you!

[fingersmac]

If you go the P2F route, you're an embarrassment to this profession. There is absolutely no way whatsoever to justify it.

[DanWEC]

While not a pay-to-fly scenario, I have been very vocal about a fly-for-free exploitation that has been happening at a Toronto area skydive club. Threads about them (who will remain nameless) have been deleted here.
They do not pay their pilots. They fly for free. They are a for-profit company, and simply exploiting and capitalizing on the fact that a pilots world is all about building hours. Not only that, but you PAY for your checkout... and may not even get "hired" (To volunteer). Absolutely disgusting. More infuriating is that there are pilots every year that do it, so the cycle continues.

A resume landed on the desk at the regional I was recently working at. It listed the said operator on it.
After a discussion around the office about the skydive operator, the resume was tossed based on that alone.

I guess that says it all.

[North Shore]

Some very 'slippery slope-ish' arguments about morality here, and differing views of what constitutes 'moral behaviour' to my mind...

I'm beginning to hear, from my friends who are going the airline route, that Air Canada (for example) is becoming a stepping-stone airline - get some jet time and good training there, and leave for greener pastures. I'm not 100% up-to-date on salary levels at AC, but it is my understanding that the first two years are fairly low salary, but that things increase thereafter. If that is the case, then, in the sense that we trade our time for money, aren't entry-level AC people enrolled in a P2F scheme of a sort? You get your type rating and experience, but have to pay for it with a few years at a reduced salary..I suspect that the same is also true of many other airlines...

If I'm able to leverage other skills in my life into money, and then convert that into flying hours via P2F, what exactly, is wrong with that? How is it immoral? I'm not much of an economist, but within the confines of a capitalist system, isn't that using a competitive advantage to, in a sense, make your 'business' better?

For the record, I didn't/havent P2F, and, looking back, I really enjoyed the journey of my years in the bush to get to where I am now. I find it sad that people wouldn't want to do things that way...

[fingersmac]

I'm beginning to hear, from my friends who are going the airline route, that Air Canada (for example) is becoming a stepping-stone airline - get some jet time and good training there, and leave for greener pastures. I'm not 100% up-to-date on salary levels at AC, but it is my understanding that the first two years are fairly low salary, but that things increase thereafter. If that is the case, then, in the sense that we trade our time for money, aren't entry-level AC people enrolled in a P2F scheme of a sort? You get your type rating and experience, but have to pay for it with a few years at a reduced salary..I suspect that the same is also true of many other airlines...

I'm not sure you have a firm grasp of the P2F phenomena that has taken hold in Asia and Europe. For example, you can become a First Officer with Lion Air via Eaglejet International for $39,700 plus the cost of a B737NG type rating. You are employed with Lion Air and earn $0 until you complete the 500 hours of line flying that you purchased. After that, they will offer you a four year contract under local terms. You are essentially buying a job at this airline through Eaglejet. You are paying Lion Air/Eaglejet $39,700 to fly a B737NG for 500 hours. And this is not while the aircraft is empty; this is with unsuspecting, fare-paying passengers onboard!

Those lured into P2F schemes will plead with you that there are no jobs available and that they must pursue these options to get a foothold in the industry. This is absolute nonsense. If no one was willing to accept these conditions, then Lion Air and it's ilk would have to hire first officers the traditional way.

[Meatservo]

I heard this story a long time ago and have no idea who to credit it to, maybe it was Mark Twain? It seems that at a rather high-society get-together, a lady and a gentleman were discussing what they would and wouldn't do for a million dollars. The lady allowed that in return for an opulent lifestyle and a wealthy husband, she could understand a woman being willing to sleep with a man she didn't particularly care for. The gentleman then offered her a dollar for the pleasure of her, erm, company. Shocked, she said, "why sir, what kind of a woman do you take me for?" He said, "we've already established that, now we're just haggling over the price."

Well, there you go.

[North Shore]

You are paying Lion Air/Eaglejet $39,700 to fly a B737NG for 500 hours. And this is not while the aircraft is empty; this is with unsuspecting, fare-paying passengers onboard!

Apart from the money changing hands, how is this any different from any one of a number of international airlines who take 200 hour wonders and stuff them (however sharp they may be) into the right seat with paying passengers behind them? I'm making the assumption here, though, that in order to get through a P&CPL, type course, and company training, you must be reasonably competent? - After all, Lion Air is in business to make money and stay in business, not to have accidents and incidents with concomitant commercial consequences due to crew incompetence.
Money-wise, isn't this simply a business transaction between two voluntary parties, both thinking that they will gain something from the deal? Would it make any difference if LionAir became a 'training airline', hired guys for room and board for 500 hours, and then offered them a 4 year deal? (Or are we now turning this into a Twain-esqe haggle over price? )

[North Shore]

I guess that I should add that I'm kinda playing the devil's advocate here - but more in a capitalistic sense. If it becomes the normal that people start paying for type ratings, then perhaps people will stop seeing aviation as a lucrative career, and stop joining in or it will become the fiefdom of the wealthy, again with a drop in entry numbers. Supply and demand should take over, and things will change, no?

[Gravol]

Could you picture a licensed AME paying out of their own pocket to service an aircraft for experience purposes? It makes just as much sense as those monthly fees banks charge! All to hold onto and invest my money! Shouldn't they be paying me?

[stall recovery]

The way this works is you buy a Type Rating and a number of hours. After that you get kicked out and another P2F (pay to fly) candidate takes your job. The idea is that with time on type you will be able to obtain a paying job on that aircraft Type.

The pay to fly schemes I am referring to actually guarantee you a job (with a 3 or 4 year contract) as a first officer, with the airline that did the line training. Just wondering if these are false claims, or do people actually get a job with the airline after completing the training ?

[mbav8r]

Stall, you're not going to find many a sympathetic ear(eye) on avcanada, myself included, so why don't you call the company who provides the so called service and ask them for referrences from some of the "pilots" who've gone through the program. I'm sure everything will work out just fine, you'll shell out 60 grand of your hardly earned money and you'll be a 777 captain in no time, bon chance, mon ami.

[stall recovery]

I find it ridiculous that so many pilots are against this. What's the alternative for fresh pilots in Canada ? Fly small(er) planes for 10 years building hours. Don't get me wrong, I think that is great experience, if pilots were fairly compensated. That is not the case though. Pilots are making crap money for those ten years working long, hard hours, even working the ramp for a while before they actually get to fly. Meanwhile, guys in Korea and Europe are jumping straight into jets after getting their CPL. Pilots in the old days didn't have to go through this shit either. That doesn't sound very fair to me. So, maybe we have to do whatever it takes to even out the playing field. Besides, I am not getting any money from parents or bank loans. It is my own hard earned money.

[Nark]

Spend your hard earned money on anything you wish.
If you want to fly for an airline in North America re-read my reply. I'm not alone on my opinion as you can see.

[shimmydampner]

I find it ridiculous that so many pilots are against this. What's the alternative for fresh pilots in Canada ? Fly small(er) planes for 10 years building hours. Don't get me wrong, I think that is great experience, if pilots were fairly compensated. That is not the case though. Pilots are making crap money for those ten years working long, hard hours, even working the ramp for a while before they actually get to fly. Meanwhile, guys in Korea and Europe are jumping straight into jets after getting their CPL. Pilots in the old days didn't have to go through this shit either. That doesn't sound very fair to me. So, maybe we have to do whatever it takes to even out the playing field. Besides, I am not getting any money from parents or bank loans. It is my own hard earned money.

You're way out to lunch on many of your points.

[DanWEC]

I find it ridiculous that so many pilots are against this. What's the alternative for fresh pilots in Canada ? Fly small(er) planes for 10 years building hours. Don't get me wrong, I think that is great experience, if pilots were fairly compensated. That is not the case though. Pilots are making crap money for those ten years working long, hard hours, even working the ramp for a while before they actually get to fly. Meanwhile, guys in Korea and Europe are jumping straight into jets after getting their CPL. Pilots in the old days didn't have to go through this shit either. That doesn't sound very fair to me. So, maybe we have to do whatever it takes to even out the playing field. Besides, I am not getting any money from parents or bank loans. It is my own hard earned money.

Exactly why this BS in the industry will continue... Because there are people like you that will do it. C'mon man.

[North Shore]

I find it ridiculous that so many pilots are against this. What's the alternative for fresh pilots in Canada ? Fly small(er) planes for 10 years building hours. Don't get me wrong, I think that is great experience, if pilots were fairly compensated. That is not the case though. Pilots are making crap money for those ten years working long, hard hours, even working the ramp for a while before they actually get to fly. Meanwhile, guys in Korea and Europe are jumping straight into jets after getting their CPL. Pilots in the old days didn't have to go through this shit either. That doesn't sound very fair to me. So, maybe we have to do whatever it takes to even out the playing field. Besides, I am not getting any money from parents or bank loans. It is my own hard earned money.

To take the other tack to what I've previously said, I'd be willing to bet that most Canadian pilots who did the 'work up north for peanuts' while building their time wouldn't trade that experience for anything. Besides, if you've only ever slept on silk sheets you aren't particularly well-equipped to judge the bed you are in...

What's the alternative for fresh pilots in Canada ? Fly small(er) planes for 10 years building hours.

Yes. We all did..

[esp803]

Pilots are making crap money for those ten years working long, hard hours

It took just over a year in the industry for me to break 50k a year. After 4 years I live very comfortably. Yes I work long hours over the summer but I enjoy trying to get awkard drill pieces into my plane, loading moose meat, rolling drums and even sometimes dealing with passengers.

Meanwhile, guys in Korea and Europe are jumping straight into jets after getting their CPL

And look at their safety record... I personally hate flying as a passenger, with that being said I would rather have a seasoned bush pilot up front then some wet behind the ears whelp.

So, maybe we have to do whatever it takes to even out the playing field

This is just sick... You are lowering salaries for everybody with that attitude

That doesn't sound very fair to me

Life's not fair, get used to it.

It is my own hard earned money

If I had 40k to blow, it sure as hell wouldn't go to working for free. You want to fly a shiny jet with 200hrs... buy a computer and flightsim... It'll save you the vast majority of that. Hell buy an airplane, it would be a better investement.

Yes it is hard to break into the industry, but it's no different then any other industry... you think teachers finish their degree and magically get handed a job as a principal... no. They usually start of subbing for shit wages and eventually get a permanent position that pays meagerly.. working their way up. I have many friends who chose to work the ramp as thier first job and they are miles ahead of me in their careers. After 4 years everybody I went to flight school with is making decent money, living good lives and most really enjoy their current positions.

E

PS: If I saw "eaglejet" on your resume it would go straight to the magic cylinder....

[xsbank]

Just to toss a rock in the pond, the son of a friend of mine was just promoted captain on a 777 for a large middle eastern airline - he's 30 and celebrated both events by buying a new Porsche... he never bought his type.