Brampton Private Cessna 172D down Oct 18 2012

[bizjets101]

Sorry no details yet, heard aircraft lost power - aircraft is down somewhere in
the Highway 10/Highway 89 Shelburne area.

Tom Podolec at CTV said 4 miles NM northeast of Shelburne.

Update One; said to be a forced landing in a field, no serious injuries, aircraft totalled.

Update Two; attempted to land on gravel road, ended up on it's roof?, two persons
on board - said to be 'minor injuries'.

Update Three; as per CADORS below, overshoot at private field, engine quit, forced landing,
TSB reports no injuries, pilot stated aircraft totalled.

Amended to read 'Private C172D, from Brampton Flying Club C172'

[Colonel Sanders]

Glad to hear no one is hurt.

I have $20 that says there was excess air in the tanks. Any takers?

[Rookie50]

No bet.

[whatsitdoingnow]

.

[Gogona]

Oh, gosh... When I first see the heading, I scared to death, cause that's my club and I know a lot of people flying out of there. Glad to learn, everybody is OK!

[YYZSaabGuy]

For those interested, here's an excerpt from the CADORS:

Record #29 Cadors Number: 2012O3080 Reporting Region: Ontario

Occurrence Information Occurrence Type: Accident Occurrence Date: 2012-10-18
Occurrence Time: 1550 Z Day Or Night: day-time

Fatalities: 0 Injuries: 0

Occurrence Location: private strip, 4NM northeast of Shelburne Province: Ontario Country: CANADA

Reported By: Pilot AOR Number: 153631-V1

Aircraft Category: Aeroplane
Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: CESSNA Model: 172D
Year Built: 1963 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: TELEDYNE CONTINENTAL Engine Model: O-300-C
Engine Type: Reciprocating
Gear Type: Land

Phase of Flight: Unknown
Damage: Substantial

Owner: Private

Event Information Collision with terrain
Engine failure
Forced landing

Detail InformationUser Name: Donaldson, John
Date: 2012-10-18
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: System Safety

Narrative: The privately-registered Cessna 172D aircraft was on a VFR flight from Brampton Airport (CNC3) to a private strip near Shelburne, ON. The aircraft was on approach to land when the pilot decided to conduct an overshoot. During the overshoot, the aircraft's engine failed. The aircraft was flown over some trees and was force-landed in a field, four (4)NM northeast of Shelburne and one (1) mile south of the Mans VOR/DME (YMS). The aircraft was (according to the pilot) "totalled." Two (2) S.O.B. -- no reported injuries. A T.S.B. Investigator was dispatched to the scene.

Please note that for the most part, CADORS reports contain preliminary, unconfirmed data which can be subject to change.

[slam525i]

During the overshoot, the aircraft's engine failed.

Flooded/stalled the engine with too quick a shove on the throttle? (i.e. accelerator pump)

I've always hated the accelerator pump. I always push it in too quick and it makes the engine choke a little. (Never had it stop though!)

[Rudy]

Your understanding of an accelerator pump is a little mixed up. It's actually designed to prevent the engine from stumbling when the throttle is applied quickly.

[slam525i]

Your understanding of an accelerator pump is a little mixed up. It's actually designed to prevent the engine from stumbling when the throttle is applied quickly.

Possibly... My understanding is that opening the throttle briskly causes the air-fuel mixture to go lean as the the carb needs time to catch up. (i.e. air flow increases faster than the fuel flow does) The accel pump squirts fuel directly into the air stream to prevent this, but it an entirely mechanical thing, so a very quick shove could dump too much in too short a time. It's designed for smooth throttle opening, and not for getting shoved.

I can't say for sure whether the little stumble I get from shoving in the throttle is from over-lean or over-rich, but my gut says over-rich. (I know, I shouldn't be shoving it to begin with...)

BTW, am I the only one who uses the accel pump for a little extra "prime" when starting?

[Instructor_Mike]

BTW, am I the only one who uses the accel pump for a little extra "prime" when starting?

Some people do, and for some aircraft there is no primer so it's the only way to do it.

The danger with priming like that is if you have a backfire during start, you can have a carb fire. However, carb fires are very rare from what i understand.

[bizjets101]

Well he was right about the totalled part!!! Glad everyone is safe . . .

[Rudy]

...a very quick shove could dump too much in too short a time. It's designed for smooth throttle opening, and not for getting shoved.

Your understanding is better than mine.

[oldncold]

Other part of the equation is > low power setting on the approach and fuel temp/ maybe not a factor in this case. Remembering back in the day, my cfi said in cold weather ie below 5'c ,having the carb heat on is better if you have to do the go- around. The heat will help vapourize the cold fuel better and prevent a possible engine failure . The procedure he taught me was go around in cold wx / 1) carb heat on 2) max power 3) safe alt -carb heat off ,the poh has the final say of course for the aircraft type . With winter again approaching ,it may keep ya out of the snow bank . flysafe

[CpnCrunch]

If the mixture is too lean, the engine can quit when you advance the throttle from idle.

Oh, and I wouldn't recommend starting your engine by pumping the throttle if your plane has a primer. Many fires have been caused by doing this. The engine should always fire in a few seconds if you've primed it properly. The primer isn't an ornament

[Colonel Sanders]

The engine should always fire in a few seconds if you've primed it properly

Not quite. Rarely on a boxer engine will the primer
be plumbed to all cylinders. For more common is
only two cylinders or even one.

With the primer going to one cylinder, remember
that when the engine is cranking, only one magneto
(the left one) will be firing. So, you are trying to start
the engine with one spark plug in one cylinder. This
is why aircraft engines can be hard to start.

It is true that with the updraft carburetor arrangement
(ie the carb is below the engine) of Lyc/TCM/Franklin
that you don't want to pump the throttle if the air is
not travelling up into the engine at the time, because
gravity pulls the fuel down into the flapper box - where
you select carb heat - and it can ignite if left to evaporate
into a combustible mixture.

As with any other system, if you understand the basic
fundamentals, you can operate it a whole lot better
than someone who does not.

What I strongly recommend is that people learn to
fly on aircraft with no starters - hand bombing. This
teaches them to prime precisely.

PS If you think hand-bombing a little 4 cylinder trainer
engine is hard, try hand-bombing a 6 cyl 540 with 3 blades,
or an R-985.

Someone who has learned to hand-bomb will rarely
overheat (and possibly melt the windings of) their
starter, and won't run the battery down, cranking
endlessly.

Here's a hint: if you're cranking, and it isn't firing:

1) is there spark? Mags on?
2) is the evaporated mixture in the cylinders too rich to burn?
3) too lean to burn?

Think about the above, next time you're cranking
and cranking, and it won't start.

[Liquid Charlie]

PS If you think hand-bombing a little 4 cylinder trainer
engine is hard, try hand-bombing a 6 cyl 540 with 3 blades,
or an R-985.

1830 was easier than a 985 and no ropes attached

[Colonel Sanders]

Anyone who can hand-bomb an 1830 (without
using the rope trick) is a god amongst men!

[cgzro]

Having spent most of my youth trying to start Cox .049's and other assocted little two stroke model A/C engines I can definitely see how the hand flipping skill translates to properly priming and starting an A/C engine. However it was like a godsend when somebody invented those little push on electric starters

[Beefitarian]

Those are odd little beasties. They use compression Ignition like a diesel yet are carbureted. I never understood the glow plug when I was young so I'd over heat the poor little guy and burn them out. Super fun and obnoxiously loud!

[Colonel Sanders]

I can definitely see how the hand flipping skill translates to properly priming and starting an A/C engine

Yeah! Remember around 10 years ago when the starter
died on your Pitts, and I hand-bombed you through the
rest of the contest and the trip back home?

I was sure glad you could prime that fuel-injected 360 ...

[1000 HP]

I attempted to hand bomb an R1820 for 45 minutes on a bet once. I lost. It took my right shoulder 6 months to heal. The R985 is a peice of cake and seems to start easier when drifting backwards into the rocks.

[slam525i]

Is the starter enough to make air move in the intake to prevent an intake-side fire from using the accel pump? I'm asking because I've only really been taught starting an engine by two instructors, and its never failed me but I've never learned any better either.

Here's my starting procedure (152 and 172 mainly):

Open the throttle about 1/2 inch.
Prime x 3
Crank
If it doesn't at least start popping in 3-seconds:
Keep cranking
Pump the throttle between 1/2 way open and closed to work the accel pump two or three times
If it still doesn't start, put the throttle back to 1/2 inch open and crank and additional second or two to clear any the excess fuel.
Curse the design of horizontally opposed engines. (Check that the fuel really is on, and the mixture really is full rich)

Prime x2 again
Repeat the above.

I've never had it fail to start, but I'm wondering if there's a better way (and more importantly, why its better.) I've seen my old instructor pump the primer on a struggling, cold engine after it's started to keep it running, but I'm not sure of the "why" and I've never done it myself.

[Colonel Sanders]

When you are cranking, there is enough suction
through the updraft carburetor to suck the fuel
from the accelerator pump into the engine.

When I am starting a carbureted engine, if too
many blades go by, and I think the mixture has
leaned out in the cylinders, while still cranking, I
will quickly push the throttle all the way in (accelerator
pump) then rapidly pull the throttle almost all the
way back to idle, to avoid leaning it out with too
much air. This usually causes it to start nicely
because it primes all cylinders, which the primer
doesn't.

However, everyone continually tells me what a
bad person I am, and they are probably right. An
aura of evil probably surrounds the carburetor when
I do this, which is preferable IMHO to a combustible
mixture surrounding the carburetor.

[GyvAir]

Anyone who can hand-bomb an 1830 (without
using the rope trick) is a god amongst men!

Isn't the rope trick just cranking an engine with a U/S starter using a rope wrapped around its propeller dome and the dome of an adjacent engine with a serviceable starter, hence, not really "hand-bombing" at all?
My hands on radial engine experience is approximately zero, so I'm hoping to learn something new here.

[Colonel Sanders]

Well, yes, except that you can use anything
(even a group of people) to pull on the rope.

When my father was flying Sabres in Europe,
if the starter cart busted, you could start one
Sabre with another by putting a running one
ahead of the one you wanted to start.

I'm sure TC wouldn't like that, so don't do it.