Beef Supreme's fantasy war bird camp.

[Beefitarian]

The premise is I hit all numbers plus bonus on one of those powerball lotteries. Money is falling out of all pockets. Obviously the first order of business is to build a small hotel with an indoor beach on a rural Sasckatchewan airport and buy 5 cool airplanes for a specialty flight school that runs fantasy camps.

1- Aviat Husky for abinitio in case guys want to come by that have never flown.
2- An Aviat Eagle for advanced aerobatics ( because I hear they're sutible for guys that are too big for regular planes )
3- An F-86 because it seems like a fun jet for guys that have never flown a jet.
4- A P-51 because almost everyone loves them.
5- An Avro 504 because there's a huge lack of world war I aircraft schools.

[CpnCrunch]

You should pitch that on Dragon's Den.

[MikeGolfEcho]

The premise is I hit all numbers plus bonus on one of those powerball lotteries. Money is falling out of all pockets. Obviously the first order of business is to build a small hotel with an indoor beach on a rural Sasckatchewan airport and buy 5 cool airplanes for a specialty flight school that runs fantasy camps.

1- Aviat Husky for abinitio in case guys want to come by that have never flown.
2- An Aviat Eagle for advanced aerobatics ( because I hear they're sutible for guys that are too big for regular planes )
3- An F-86 because it seems like a fun jet for guys that have never flown a jet.
4- A P-51 because almost everyone loves them.
5- An Avro 504 because there's a huge lack of world war I aircraft schools.

How about a Spitrfire instead of/as well as the P-51? I've heard a few may be for sale soon... just need a wipe down with a rag as they've been buried for a while

[Brantford Beech Boy]

put a carrier in a lake and get an F-14...I'm all in!!!!

BBB

[loopy]

P51 and F16, because they both just look so damn sexy!

[flatface]

deleted

[co-joe]

Go onto Netflix and watch that WW2 in colour, the segment on the Battle of Brittain. The RAF was stretched so thin and losing so many pilots daily, that they said some pilots were going off to war with 10 hours in their log books! That's in theSpitfire and Hurricane. Once the Luftwaffe changed tactics to bombing London and let the RAF rebuild I'm sure training standards came back up a wee bit.

[cgzro]

The BCATP program which trained a huge number of pilots in Canada for England used Tiger Moths, Fleet Finch, Cornells, some Stearman, Chipmunks and then Harvard.
The log books of some of the pilots show solo in Moth in as little as 4-5 hours!
Ive got about 20 hrs in the moth and 30 or so in the Finch and find that seriously impressive.

Other interesting tid bits. About 1 in 200 of the kids were killed in training and then when they shipped off .. 25% of the ships were being sunk by U boats..
and they had not even started fighting yet

At Vintage Wings we've been commemorating this program and will next year be taking air cadets all over the country flying in these beautiful old planes.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

The BCATP program which trained a huge number of pilots in Canada for England used Tiger Moths, Fleet Finch, Cornells, some Stearman, Chipmunks and then Harvard.

Just to be nit-picky, but the Chipmunk didn't fly until May 1946, after the war was over. When did the BCATP officially cease operations?

[iflyforpie]

No pilot ever went into combat with 10TT. Maybe ten hours on type with 300TT, but that's as bad as it got for the Allies. The Japanese and Germans on the other hand had some Kamikaze and Hitler Youth pilots with 50TT during the final days of the War.

It is worth noting that the BCATP was much more effective at killing Allied pilots and destroying aircraft than the Axis powers were.

[Colonel Sanders]

the BCATP was much more effective at killing Allied pilots and destroying aircraft than the Axis powers were.

What nonsense.

On the Ploesti, Romania, mission in August 1943, losses were 30 percent and against Schweinfurt in October, 28 percent.

[cgzro]

BCATP wrapped up in March 1945 at least according to Google so I stand corrected that the Chipmunk would not have been involved. Too bad its a beautiful flying plane while the Finch and Moth are ... well much more challenging

I believe however the above statement of training losses being worse than combat is demonstrably false as there is a memorial to 800 people who lost their lives during the BCATP 5 year program which I suspect is just a 'tad' less than losses in Combat:(

A bit more googling for stats shows something like
30% kia/mia on fighters, 40% medium bombers and 70% heavy bombers.
All of those eclipse the <1% training losses.

[iflyforpie]

The number is much higher than that. The RCAF alone lost 3000 in training accidents in WWII.

[Beefitarian]

Sorry, I had to leave before I finished the post.

It was suposed to say at the end everyone can make their own list of five if they wish.

You should pitch that on Dragon's Den.

Oh man, I should get the Diemert Defender and go pitch something really crazy. That would be pretty funny.

[akoch]

Yak-3, La-7 please

[GyvAir]

The number is much higher than that. The RCAF alone lost 3000 in training accidents in WWII.

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/history/s ... catp/page8

"Of the 856 BCATP participants who were either killed or seriously injured in aeroplane crashes that occurred at training schools, 469 were RCAF, 291 RAF, 65 RAAF, and 31 RNZF."

Even if there were ten hull losses for every one involving serious injury or death, that's still just 8560. The table below claims losses of 21,000 aircraft and close to 80,000 personnel in bombing raids alone. Closer to 40,000 aircraft and 160,000 men if you include US losses. (I presume USA did not participate in the BCATP so those numbers aren't really relevant)
Sobering numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... svg&page=1

My apologies for continuing the hijacking of the thread!

[fleet16b]

It is worth noting that the BCATP was much more effective at killing Allied pilots and destroying aircraft than the Axis powers were.

One of the more moronic statements I have seen on this Forum

[rigpiggy]

The number is much higher than that. The RCAF alone lost 3000 in training accidents in WWII.

I read that somewhere in the event that 25% of all losses in WW2 were in "training". That would include everything from BCATP, to squadron specific ie: low level night nav, gunnery, bomber formation et al, etc.......

The Me-109 lost nearly 1/3 of it's numbers "33000" to takeoff, and landing accidents, They also asked for better Visibility, but "Willie" was an extraordinary pilot and wouldn't listen to such pedestrian requests.

[Colonel Sanders]

The Me-109 lost nearly 1/3 of it's numbers to takeoff, and landing accidents

That whacky landing gear was to blame for that.



Anyways, we are now supposed to believe, that viewed
through highly distorting left-wing prism of revisionist
history, that the BCATP was a massacre far worse than
Katyn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

The massacre was prompted by Lavrentiy Beria's proposal to execute all members of the Polish Officer Corps, dated 5 March 1940. This official document was approved and signed by the Soviet Politburo, including its leader, Joseph Stalin. The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000

The lefties lie and try to obliterate Canada's proud
history prior to the reign of their patron saint, Pierre
Elliot Trudeau, who's ghost they are frantically trying
to resurrect as I type.

The BCATP was a tremendous accomplishment that Canada
should take great pride in achieving. In addition to providing
enormous manpower to defeat the Nazis (whom today's lefties
probably think are great guys) the BCATP also gave Canada
an incredible, coast-to-coast infrastructure of airports and
hangars.

Without that infrastructure, post-WWII aviation in Canada
as we know it today would have been nearly non-existent.

[jump154]

At Vintage Wings we've been commemorating this program and will next year be taking air cadets all over the country flying in these beautiful old planes.

So how is this going to be organised, and how can I get my Cadets in line?

[Siddley Hawker]

Beef ya gotta have a Mosquito, a Jug and a Hose-nose. No self-respecting fantasy is complete without it.

I seem to remember the 109's gear geometry is the way it is because it's attached to the fuselage instead of the wing, so's the wings could be removed and the aircraft towed along the road.

[costermonger]

Didn't we used to have a forum for people to spew their political idiocy so it could be kept out of this one?

What happened to that forum again?

--

I second the Mosquito and I'd add the Bearcat to the list:

How can you not like that?

[Shiny Side Up]

The BCATP was a tremendous accomplishment that Canada
should take great pride in achieving. In addition to providing
enormous manpower to defeat the Nazis (whom today's lefties
probably think are great guys) the BCATP also gave Canada
an incredible, coast-to-coast infrastructure of airports and
hangars.

And it still is. To come to IFP's defense, he's not as far off the mark as one thinks though, but it all depends on perspective. The numbers for "lost in training" and "lost due to combat" aren't very cut and dried. I know the 800 mark is cited by Wikipedia, but I've seen other sources which place it higher closer to IFP's 3000 mark. This would also suppose that when talking about "Allied" we're speaking the British Commonwealth and not the entire Allied totals which would also raise the number of training losses substantially if we included American and Russian totals -notably the Russian totals aren't differentiated from combat losses. For combat losses, how many aircraft were lost due to direct enemy action and how many were lost to other causes remains an unknown. For instance the losses of bomber command its speculated that as high as 30% were lost due to weather causes. Unfortunately the Allies were significantly behind the Germans in their weather forcasting abilities (the Germans realising the importance of it even maintained weather stations in Canada through out the war). A direct result of that was the majority of the C-47 losses on D-Day were due to them running into unexpected cloud layers which resulted in at least two aircraft being lost to mid air collisions and at least a dozen which simply got lost, much to the misfortune of those poor souls jumping out of them that night. While those would typically be counted as combat losses, one can't say that they were due to direct enemy action. Especially in the last stages of the war where Axis ability to contest Allied air superiority diminished, the ratio of "combat losses" to "operational losses" changed considerably. For instance 95% of B-29 losses during the Pacific campaign were due to accidents.

While IFP's words may be ill-chosen, the point does stand that training losses were very high, something that isn't often appreciated, but was deemed necessary and acceptable at the time. We also lost a lot of airplanes by running them out of fuel, getting them lost in weather or in the dark, and sometimes they were just poorly made in the first place. Many times we deemed it necessary, knowing these things and sending them anyways. That's not a"left" or a "right" viewpoint, its just the way it was. Typically, the losses of the BCATP are counted in amongst the total casualties of the war which maybe has acertain unintended justice. With this comming November we can merely be grateful for their sacrifice. I intend to show my appreciation by flying out of as many triangular air fields as I can.

Which incidentally should be arequirement of Beef's training camp, that it refurbish an old abandoned triagular field, though maybe not make the hangars out of kindling. I would nominate the old Calgary South strip which is currently inactive, but still triangular.

I want to fly the Pinball at the camp.

[Shiny Side Up]

I seem to remember the 109's gear geometry is the way it is because it's attached to the fuselage instead of the wing, so's the wings could be removed and the aircraft towed along the road.

Actually its so they could make the wing thinner so it could get better performance.

[Beefitarian]

Well before I missed the "everyone make a list of five request" opening the door to Kanader was a death trap for training 3 hour fighter pilits.

~sigh~

If I won only a couple of million I would totally try to refurbish the south Calgary triangle or one that maybe was a little further out of the ever expanding YYC, "no airplane fun" zone.