Circling Minimums

[justplanecrazy]

I had someone tell me that a circling approach from an ILS has the decision height of the ILS. He was claiming that you can go down to 200' to break clear as long as you commence the circling procedure at the required height (ie. 500'). Any truth to this? I'm to lazy to look it up.

[alpha speed]

I don't think so.
Circling mins are on each approach plate where circling is aloud.

[oldtimer]

jpc - your signature says it all. There is a name for people who play around with minimums. They add the prefex "The Late" to their name. Circling minimums only allow 300' clearance between minimums and obstructions within the circle to land airspace. It is very simple, start playing around with definitions and you end up dead. Just a word of advice from someone who has been there before.

[altiplano]

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[DA900]

The only way I see that proceedure being legal is by cancelling your IFR why you would do a circling that low is beyond comprehension and obviously very unsafe. However you can certainly descend on the ILS breaking it off at at circling mins as I know you are well aware of.

A circle approach to land is one of the most difficult approaches to perform. oldtimer and I have checked out quite a few pilots on Metros years ago. They have to be discussed, and what your tasks will be as flying and nonflying pilot. This is not an approach that should ever be done on whim, and I agree with what he says don't fu*k around with it. I know more pilots who have bought the farm by this approach then any other!

[altiplano]

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[R2000/1830]

As I have said before, just because its legal does not insure safty and just because its illegal does not make it unsafe. Use your judgement not the CARS when your thinking about doing something you will live longer.

[TTail]

The only way I see that proceedure being legal is by cancelling your IFR

What are you talking about? Cancelling your IFR once your break out at 200' agl? Or cancelling IFR prior to commencing the approach therefore doing the entire procedure illegally to begin with?

Am I missing something here???

[TTail]

I had someone tell me that a circling approach from an ILS has the decision height of the ILS. He was claiming that you can go down to 200' to break clear as long as you commence the circling procedure at the required height (ie. 500'). Any truth to this? I'm to lazy to look it up.

No offense to you but I think your friend needs to go back to IFR school. Last time I looked on an approach plate, there was a seperate column for circling minimums, therefore, if you are planning a circling approach, you are required to adhere to the circling minimums. No you cannot use the ILS to go down to 200' and then climb back up to 500' to circle. You think you are going to be able to circle at 500' if you broke out at 200'??? The severity of the danger involved here can easily be understood once you get in an airplane that has a Vref of 140kt and you execute your first approach down to minimums! You'll see this situation in a different light. Circling approaches are not an enticing option let alone messing with them at 200' agl.

[Panama Jack]

I've heard this little diddy before-- normally discussed in the context of non-precision approaches, but . . .

What are we talking about here??? Realistically, when would you actually fly an ILS, with precision lateral and vertical guidance to the touchdown zone of a runway-- break out, then go UP again and do a low-level ..-run for another runway??? If you "break out" right at mins on an ILS, you will probably be back in the soup again for the circling approach, no??? IMHO, there are only three options at DH-- 1) Continue lower (only because you have required visual references), 2) Land, or 3) go missed. Anything else is extremely stupid.

[DA900]

Or cancelling IFR prior to commencing the approach therefore doing the entire procedure illegally to begin with?

Am I missing something here???

Yes you are.

Tell me how it is illegal remember this an approach to land. As I said before it is beyond comprehension and obviously very unsafe, but not illegal when you are landing you could be 100ft off the ground if you need to be.

[twinpratts]

HA HA HA! I'm not sure who is more brutal... the guy who told you this tripe, or you 'too lazy to look it up'
Yikes...

[DA900]

twinpratts if you are directing that at me tell me what it says under the AIP 5.4.2

[TTail]

Tell me how it is illegal remember this an approach to land.

[TTail]

What are we talking about here??? Realistically, when would you actually fly an ILS, with precision lateral and vertical guidance to the touchdown zone of a runway-- break out, then go UP again and do a low-level ..-run for another runway??? If you "break out" right at mins on an ILS, you will probably be back in the soup again for the circling approach, no???

Exactly the point I was making. Realistically, you wouldn't.

[TTail]

DA900,

How can you commence an IFR approach in IMC conditions after cancelling your IFR flight plan???

[xsbank]

A circling approach is conducted to an MDA not a DH. An MDA means you cannot descend 1' below it and still be legal. Try dropping below MDA on a ride and you will see what I mean. You CAN conduct a precision approach but only to the MDA for the circle, and generally speaking if you intend a circle, arriving at the MDA on the glide slope is probably too close to the airport in anything faster than a 'jo, to conduct a safe maneuver; a non-precision approach (ie LOC ONLY) is usually more effective. However, should you plan a circle when the w/x is at circling mins, you are setting yourself up for a very difficult and generally unsafe maneuver UNLESS you have practised it LOTS.

VNAV, GPS etc approaches are effective ways to do an approach to circling but only if you have some room above the circling MDA...and don't forget how to do the miss if you lose visual reference while circling - you will probably have to do the first turn to the centre of the airport (probably to the intended landing runway heading), and you will be conducting the MAPP for the runway of first approach NOT intended landing.

The other guys were right: mess with mins=death.

[DA900]

LJ I see where you are coming from. What I was talking was once you are visual cancelling your IFR and commence the circling approach, but I would never suggest anyone do that. Just that its not illegal the way the rules are written. Just like you do not need an IFR clearance above FL600 because it Class G

[oldtimer]

OK- I see here that there is a bit of confusion about what is legal and what can be done. As DA900 said earlier, a circle to land is a dangerous manoeuver that has to be done with precision. Suppose you do the ILS/DME 33 approach in Terrace with a circle to land 15 because the wind is just howling out of the south. If you do the ILS to minimums (250)ft. and then climb to circle to land minimums, you are one of two things,
1. over the airport with no where to go.
2. starting the turn right smack dab into a big friggen hill called "The Hermans" .
If you start the circle to land at circle to land minimums, you turn before and above "The Hermans"
It is tempting to push the envelope and try to be creative but it could lead you down a dangerous garden path.
Now if you try this in resonably flat land jike the prairie provinces, you may be able to get away with it but the regs are always designed with worst case scenario in mind and the mountains of British Columbia will seperate the (women)men from the boys(girls). You do something dumb or silly there and you can be in a whole world of hurt. Just have a look at the LOC/DME 08 with a circle to land 26 approach in Kamloops. Break out at mins at night and you see the town underneath you, you see the airport and you see the lights of the mill on your left. follow the highway which is on your left as you go downwind right and because the airport and it's environs are in sight and there are no lights visible west of the airport, so you descend out of minimums to circuit height. After all you are still 1000 ft AAE but low and behold, you get a quick glance at highway traffic but the lights are ABOVE you and then BANG, you are into the side of a friggen mountain. The mill you thought was below you is actually tucked into a little valley. Do the trip in daylight and it seems not too bad, but just do not descend out of circling minimums until you are on CLOSE IN base or final. Sitting in the right seat of a Metro, at circle to land minimums, you usually cannot see sky out the left side window because you are lower than terrain. Try to improvise on the RNAV approach into Salmon Arm. Just look at the approach into Quesnel with a CAT 3 airplane for a quick turn around. Landing limits are 100 ft lower than take-off minima.
The message I am trying to get across is that the procedures and minimums are there for a reason and if you deviate, you could be in a whole world of hurt. How much do they pay you and is there extra danger pay?
I always tell my pilots that one thing they should be able to put on your tombstone is "He Was In Charted Territory"
Just be careful, it can be a dangerous world if you get careless.

[chief]

If you do the circle to land on the ils in terrace you will be in a bigger world of hurt because there IS no circle to land on the ils!

[Demosthenes]

If you "break out" right at mins on an ILS, you will probably be back in the soup again for the circling approach, no??? IMHO, there are only three options at DH-- 1) Continue lower (only because you have required visual references), 2) Land, or 3) go missed. Anything else is extremely stupid.

Agreed, the circling minima is just that, minimum. Once you're below that, you are below circling minimum.

D.

[PT6-114A]

I thought that you could not go below MDA on a circling approach untill you were set up on FINAL for the new runway?

[DA900]

PT6-114A there is nothing that says you can't start your descent while on the downwind or base. If you are flying into Fairmont Hot Springs the circling min is 6322agl you would have to make a long final just to make the rwy.

It is not a bad thing to wait till final to start your descent especially if you are unfamiliar with the area, but don't let it trap you high or to far from the airport.

[COCO THE MONKEY]

I was trying to follow Oldtimers approach into Kamloops. I think he has 08 and 26 reversed, then it makes sense. Anyway, picky point but I certainly agree and have waltzed that KA circling bear myself.

As with other mountainous circling approaches in my territory (BC) there are some lethal pitfalls. Some points to consider:

Remember that the circling minima give 300' clearance only within the radius from the thresholds consistent with your category A,B,C or D (1.7, 1.9, 2.1 .? miles as I recall as I do not have my CAP on hand). With MDA's up to 2,000' agl. or more at these airports (KA, CG, YF...)how is one to get on the ground without either:

- commencing descent on downwind or base, realistically downwind,
- waiting til the roll out onto final but not exceeding the 1.9 or 2.1 sm. (whichever) on base (is that right for Cat C?) which works out to a final of about 1.5 miles or a precipitous descent of about 1500' per mile or about 3000 fpm or more, a gradient of 10 times the normal 300' per mile or 30 degrees - yikes!

Lets face it, once you start descent below circling MDA, you are on your own for obstacle clearance, even if you start down on final. Castlegar circling to R33 still has a lump of rock to dodge on short final requiring a little jag to the west on short final as I recall or steep gradient. Point is, local knowledge often figures into the mountainous circling procedure to some extent else unrealistically long finals (illegally beyond circling min distance) or astonishingly steep approaches are required. I can't imagine the terror one must feel coming into these places having never been there before.

Just my 2 cents worth. Great topic.

[lilfssister]

Cancel IFR when you broke out at 200 or 250' Does anyone else find that idea just a little bit WTF?