CAR 720.21 Interpretation.

[DHeight]

Just had a question to generate some discussion on what your interpretation is regarding CAR720.21.

It states:

720.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

The standards for compliance with this section are:

(1) An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with an opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 consecutive hours while on reserve by one of the following methods:

(a) the air operator shall provide the flight crew member with 24 hours notice of the time of commencement and duration of the rest period. The designated rest period cannot shift more than 3 hours earlier or later than the preceding rest period, nor more than a total of 8 hours in any 7 consecutive days;

(b) the flight crew member shall be given a minimum of 10 hours notice of the assignment and shall not be assigned any duty for these 10 hours; or

(c) the air operator shall not assign the flight crew member to flight duty time and shall not interrupt the flight crew member's rest period between 22:00 and 06:00 local time.

(2) Where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for flight duty or the reporting time occurs between 22:00 and 06:00 local time:

(a) the maximum flight duty time shall be 10 consecutive hours; and

(b) the subsequent minimum rest period shall be increased by at least one-half the length of the preceding flight duty time.

Say like most companies you are given a monthly schedule in which there are reserve days from xx:xx until xx:xx, let's say for arguments sake 4AM until 2PM.

Since you would be given a monthly schedule, lets disregard paragraph 1b for the sake of the interpretation of this RESERVE standard. As usually you shouldn't need to be given 10 hours prior notice of a reserve assignment unless you ran into some duty time issues on one of your flights in that month.

So therefore with respect to paragraph 1a, 1c and 2a would the correct interpretation be that for companies that issue a monthly schedule with reserve times, they aren't technically giving you a notice of "REST PERIOD COMMENCEMENT", hence the air operator can't contact you until 6AM even though your reserve schedule begins at 4AM; unless they restrict you to 10 hours duty time?

The reason I ask this is because if an air operator says you're on reserve from 4AM to 2PM, no where in the CAR's can I find that this subconciously means that your rest period is to COMMENCE at 8PM (8 hours prior to your reserve schedule). So wouldn't it mean that by giving you a reserve schedule that starts 2 hours prior to 6AM, the air operator potentially runs the risk of being able to only duty you for 10 hours if called in between 4 AM and 6 AM?

Likewise, is there anywhere in the CAR's that protects pilots being on reserve say from 4AM until 2PM, that if they are called in at 159PM for a flight assignment, they are only restricted to x amount of duty hours? It seems kind of bizarre that you would be on reserve from 4AM until 2PM, and then be expected to show up for a 14 hour duty day. I thought I read a CAR somewhere about this in that if called in during your reserve schedule, you are restricted to 14 hours of total duty time from the time of reserve commencement. Hence if your reserve started at 4AM, you are good to fly until 6PM... but I can't seem to dig it up... maybe it was in my dreams lol

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on these couple of interpretations/questions!

Thanks in advance, hope to generate some good discussion.

[anonymity]

It's implied rest, same as if you were scheduled to work at 4am, you know you need 8 hours prone rest. The problem is if you go to bed a 8pm you will likely wake up around 4 or 5 and now at 2pm you're expected to work 14 hours, not reasonable, but I believe it's legal.
I just looked at our reserve section and first it states, a reserve blockholder is responsible to ensure he is available for call out anytime during his reserve period, sounds like get your rest to me. It also states, that from the beginning of the reserve period to the end of assigned duty, can be no longer than 20 hours. With a reserve period starting at 4am, the latest I would have to work is midnight. This is contractual not a regulation, so to me if they had this put in the contract, it's because it's not in the CARs.

[DHeight]

Thanks for your reply!

I see what you're saying and this is why I wanted to see what others were interpreting. I see what you are saying about it being implied rest, but unlike what the CAR's require companies to adopt, companies that post a monthly schedule aren't technically saying "You need to be in bed by this time for your reserve shift using one of the approved methods." And interestingly enough, the first part of CAR720.21 says "(1) An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with an opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 consecutive hours while on reserve by one of the following methods:"

If you scroll up and read CAR 720.16 which talks about Rest Periods, no where does it say that for a regular shift where you are to fly you need to have 8 hours of rest. I actually couldn't find this anywhere on the CAR's that when showing up for duty you need 8 hours rest. And that's the big kicker here, showing for duty is different than being on reserve. Because if you are on "DUTY" while on reserve, the time is ticking towards the 14 hour expiry. Hence why I strongly believe that this is the reason for why they have developed standards for RESERVE alone being a separate entity as CAR720.21.

I personally can appreciate that Reserve is a gamble between going to work and not going to work. And because of that I can understand why the CAR's requires the air operator to tell you when to go to bed so that they don't screw themselves over if they call you between 10PM to 6AM. But if an operator technically isn't telling you when to go to bed or the nominal "commencement of rest period" it does kind of seem like they are shooting themselves in the foot of only sending you to work for a total of 10 hours duty time should they wake you up between 4 and 6AM. Right?

Interestingly enough unlike RESERVE, being scheduled to fly doesn't have any implications and standard's reflecting your check in starting between 10PM and 6AM. Being on reserve DOES if they don't give you a commencement of rest period time.

I'm not trying to be a nit picky little grinch here I just really want to understand a valid justification for companies being under the impression that they can call you between 4AM and 6PM in this case to send you out for a 14 hour day when they aren't really following an approved method listed in the CAR's.

Would love to get more feedback on this! Cause when I called transport about this they were like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off and couldn't answer this question lol.

[oldncold]

that 'rule is to prevent being on call/reserve and on duty rest at the same time having the operator tell the crew they are now on duty rest shifts the responsibility to the crew . it is now thier responsibility to be properly rested for the next shift .

[DHeight]

According to paragraph 1a,b though it does imply that its actually the air operators responsibility to inform the crew of WHEN they are to be resting. Right?

[oldncold]

Yes the operator must say crew x you start your duty rest at 7pm you may be called at 5am be ready. Most 703 ifr ops run their crews out to 10-12 hours before releasing them to start their duty rest so that they can get as much utilization as possible. If the wheels are not in the well at the 12hr point its ponitless beyond that in most cases as it results in hotel /meals for dutied out crew which defeats the purpose of maximum profits.

The ideal from a crew situation and reduced fatigue is a 7 days on 7 days off 7nights on 7 off ./14/14 works too mgt though has to be alot more vigilent about fatigue and not bouncing crews night /day around the clock. imho that schedule should be 14nights only14off 14days only 14off .

The schedule always begins on a wed . why dont bump into hassles on 44+ work weeks as you average the month (no overtime) and the flight crews know they are going to get 2weekends a month off= great for morale.
A 9-on 6 off if you are working primarly in a scheduled enviroment where its very rare that anyone may be working past 3am .That schedule is a good balance of operational efficiency, fatigue management , crew work /life balance . fly safe

[DHeight]

Yes the operator must say crew x you start your duty rest at 7pm you may be called at 5am be ready.

Exactly ! Which means that by simply giving a crew member a schedule where there is a reserve from 4AM to 2PM let's say, the air operator isn't really telling them to start their rest 8 hours prior. As far as I'm concerned, the crew can legally be up until when ever if they really wanted to and go to bed and if they get called in at 4AM they say ok, but I'm restricted to 10 hours duty as per Paragraph 2 of Car 720.21... BECAUSE it is implied that usually people go to be around the 10 pm mark and are given a fair rest protection under the CAR's to be up at 6 AM (giving them 8 hours). And if the company for what ever reason can't comply with not bothering them in this 8 hour fair rest, the company can only use this crew for 10 hours duty.

NOW if the company specifically said make sure you're in bed by 8PM, then there would absolutely be NO argument that the crew member SHALL be ready for a 14 hour duty day at 4AM.

To make the point simpler I guess I'm trying to say that a company posting a reserve schedule doesn't mean that they are giving you "COMMENCEMENT OF REST PERIOD" as per what the CAR's require them to do, hence if they call you between 2200 to 0600, they shoot themselves in the foot and can only use you for 10 hours duty.

[The Hammer]

Do you really want to play that game? How will it benefit you? Increasing costs by paying people to tell you the obvious.
I am sure your operator can put that exact statement on the bottom of your schedule if you like but maybe they think that if that is necessary then maybe the guy in the pointy end should be in that seat after all.

Here is your problem. If you post on facebook at 20:01 after they contacted you then your employer has just means to fire you because you are not obeying the CAR's by getting your 8 hrs rest. ie Fit for duty

Thank you for this discussion and removing all doubt.

[DHeight]

Just don't post on facebook

It's not a game dude, companies stretch every card to screw you over on these fine points in the CAR's that aren't always understood properly by flight crew.

Safety is paramount in our industry and getting called at 4AM to go to work when you checked in for work at 11AM the day prior and checked out at 6PM and are expected to come home, unwind, and be bed ready @ 8pm in case you get called in at 4AM for a 14 hour shift is retarded... So is 10 hours but how many times at the tail end of a 14 hour duty day after even being rested have you been fully functional to pull off a high-demand work load? If you say all the time I call your bluff.

Speaking of 8 hours rest - I would like for you to show me where I can find in the CAR's that minimum sufficient rest is 8 hours for a normal duty where you go to fly? Cause I have searched for hours and the only place I find the "8 hour rest" requirement is for flight crews under reserve.

I personally ride the waves of a great job today where I'm treated properly but I would like to ask what you guys think about this.

I appreciate your input Hammer.

[bobm]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/s ... l-3359.htm


S740.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

(1)When a flight crew member is on reserve, an air operator must provide the flight crew member with the opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 hours by one of the 3 methods indicated in the standard. When that flight crew member is contacted and required to report for duty during the period of reserve duty, the flight crew member is no longer considered to be on reserve but on duty, and therefore the requirements of 720.21 no longer apply. This means that at anytime during the reserve period, a flight crew member can be required to start a 14 hour duty period (or longer depending on the applicability of those sections of 700.16 and 720.16 which permit extended flight duty times). A flight crew member therefore must remain rested while on reserve such that they are able to cope with a full duty day if called.

(2)Anytime a flight crew member returns to reserve status following a flight duty assignment and the rest period required for that assignment, the reserve “clock” is set to zero. This means that a flight crew member who was originally on “early” reserve can be placed on “late” reserve following the flight and rest period. Should an operator wish to shift a flight crew member’s schedule from an “early” reserve to a “late” reserve (or late to early) without an intervening flight duty assignment and rest period, the flight crew member must receive 24 hours off before commencing the “late” reserve.

(3)The phrase “where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for duty…” means that the flight crew member is required to report for duty during a scheduled reserve period and/or during the subsequent rest period. Subsection (2) does not apply to a flight duty assignment which begins during the reserve period and infringes on what was a scheduled rest period if the rest period that preceded the flight duty assignment was scheduled in accordance with subparagraph (1).

[Jack In The Box]

that 'rule is to prevent being on call/reserve and on duty rest at the same time having the operator tell the crew they are now on duty rest shifts the responsibility to the crew . it is now thier responsibility to be properly rested for the next shift .

Precisely. And as far as I'm concerned, if my schedule says that I'm no longer on call at 2pm and not on call again until 4am, then my rest begins at 2pm. If scheduling you to end your on call period at 2pm (assuming you are supposed to be available on call in the morning) isn't considered advanced notice of when your rest period commences, I don't know what is. Bobm's post seems to sum it up, it's the employers responsibility to give you 8 hours of rest period, and it's your responsibility to be rested during that period.

[The Hammer]

Here you go DH

CAR 101.1 "minimum rest period" - means a period during which a flight crew member is free from all duties, is not interrupted by the air operator or private operator, and is provided with an opportunity to obtain not less than eight consecutive hours of sleep in suitable accommodation, time to travel to and from that accommodation and time for personal hygiene and meals. (période de repos minimale)

700.16

(3) Following a flight duty time assignment, an air operator shall provide a flight crew member with the minimum rest period and any additional rest period required by this Part.

You are complaining about a 7 hr day and then a 0400 call for 14 hrs? Must be nice. I didn't say it was practical, I just said it was the regs. We agree on that. Until the new regs happen and the playing field is level for all operators it will continue.

AC pilots are wetting their pants at the thought that they may have to work to the CAR's reg's.

If it makes you feel better my brother in law has been "forced to work 72 hr weeks for the last 3 months and he works for a crown corp. He is a lineman. I'll take 14 hr days in an airplane occasionally vs everyday working with high voltage lines after that kind of day, week, months

[DHeight]

Hey guys! Awesome discussion. Thanks for your input.

The Hammer, for the record I'm not complaining Sorry if it came off that way! Like I said I have worked up the ranks in the industry and finally am at a job where they treat me good including reserve! I was just curious about certain aspects of reserve.

Thanks every body!

[lostaviator]

another question in regards to on call / on reserve.

Lets say I land tonight at 7:00pm and go home for the night. Tomorrow, I am scheduled to be on call starting at 7:00am.

Tomorrow comes, and I get a phone call at 9am telling me to come in at noon.

What time did my day start?

[Jack In The Box]

another question in regards to on call / on reserve.

Lets say I land tonight at 7:00pm and go home for the night. Tomorrow, I am scheduled to be on call starting at 7:00am.

Tomorrow comes, and I get a phone call at 9am telling me to come in at noon.

What time did my day start?

Your day will have started at 9 when you were called...meaning even though you had to be fresh at 7, you can now work a full 14 (or 15 for you 703 guys) hour duty day. Which was part of the ops original point, that there should be some rule preventing you from being fresh at an early hour then being called out late in the reserve period for a full days worth of work. This is something my company has been taking a look at.

[jspitfire]

So from the CARS definitions below (that define reserve and on call seperately) and part 720.21, Am I correct in that a pilot "on call" has no limitations on duty time when called out between 2200 and 0600 local?


"flight crew member on call" - means a flight crew member who has been designated by an air operator to be available to report for flight duty on notice of one hour or less;

flight crew member on standby" - means a flight crew member who has been designated by an air operator or private operator to remain at a specified location in order to be available to report for flight duty on notice of one hour or less;

“flight crew member on reserve” - means a flight crew member who has been designated by an air operator to be available to report for flight duty on notice of more than one hour;

"flight duty time" - means the period that starts when a flight crew member reports for a flight, or reports as a flight crew member on standby, and finishes at "engines off" or "rotors stopped" at the end of the final flight