Air Force Pilots?

M4A1 · Post by **M4A1** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:58 pm

I noticed that no one on here (that Ive seen) is in the Air Force. They train you, pay you, and give you a job for a 7 year contract. They are looking for pilots also. Why doesnt anyone go this way? Their pay seems to be good, and you get benefits. On their website, they make it seem too good to be true.

Im just curious what you think about getting into the Air Force and making a career there.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:26 pm

OK, I'll be first.

The 20/20 uncorrected vision and university degree requirements probably knock out about 80 percent of the hopefuls. That's just a guess.

-istp

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:41 pm

and a good one at that.

Say Altitude · Post by **Say Altitude** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:31 pm

In the CF, you are an Officer first and a pilot second. You can count on a three year non-flying posting either after your first or second post OTU flying job - that means no flying for three years. The you can expect to alternate after that - flying/non-flying/flying/non-flying. If you want to be a pilot, then the military may not necessarily be for you.

Fast Air guys are doing 135 hours/year. That's all they can budget for. You want to fly helo's? The AF is your gig. Last course that finished Moose Jaw (so I'm told) went in excess of 80% helo. One Hornet and three Transport.

It's more about wearing the uniform, getting some excellent training but flying is not the focus - your contribution to the CF is.

Hope this helps.

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:41 pm

I was told that to become an excellent pilot one had to work on a dock or ramp for a few seasons prior to being given a chance to build 200 hours a year. I made a career error though, never had a float flying job so still haven't been able to make it to a Boeing 747 or an A-340. Didn't believe them at the time, oh well

. Going to the Air Force, wearing a pressed uniform and spit-shined shoes seemed too wussy.

CH124 Driver · Post by **CH124 Driver** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:50 am

It's been mentioned already, if you want to fly your arse off, don't join the CF. If you want good pay from the get go, ball hockey fridays, TGIFs, and medical and dental coverage all thrown in with some very cool flying (where else can you get hauled down in a 20,000lb helo onto the deck of a frigate in Sea State 4?) then the military is your gig. To each their own, I've been in for 6 years and I love it. Even if I get sent to a desk job for a few years, the only pay I lose is my Aircrew Allowance. I keep the pilot pay. Then it's back to the flight line. Of course this isn't always the case, I know "Master" Captains that have been in flying positions their entire careers.

Just my $0.02

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:27 am

There are a few CF pilots around here.

I like it. Other CF pilots like it. It has its drawbacks with desk work and all the rest but as long as you know what you're getting into you'll be fine. The advantages of the job and lifestyle definitely outweigh the crap though, by a long shot.

M4A1 · Post by **M4A1** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:49 pm

So there are military pilots here.

How many new pilots get stuck on helos? If I joined, I would not want to fly helos, anything but. Also, how hard is the training? Like the basic officer training, land and sea survival, etc?

And of course, my dream job, how many get put on the Hornets?

CH124 Driver · Post by **CH124 Driver** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:26 pm

under_par_00 wrote:So there are military pilots here.

How many new pilots get stuck on helos? If I joined, I would not want to fly helos, anything but. Also, how hard is the training? Like the basic officer training, land and sea survival, etc?

And of course, my dream job, how many get put on the Hornets?

Stuck on helos? I resent that remark. I'll tell you right now that 50% go helo and it's only going to get higher if the Chief of the Defense Staff gets his wish of more and bigger helos. So if you really don't want helos, don't join. You've got a very good chance of ending up there. That said, I didn't want helos when I joined, but it turns out that I love it and I couldn't care less if I ever fly ceased wing again.

Basic Officer Training, land and sea survival are the easiest courses you'll do. Basic flight training in Moose Jaw has about 1 or 2 of 16 fail and helo school sees about 1 in 8 fail, sometimes more. It's not impossible, though I know quite a few guys that would argue that.

How many get Hornets? 2 of 16 on my course in Moose Jaw got Hornets, though just getting there is no guarantee. Guys still fail the Hornet OTU and get sent elsewhere.

M4A1 · Post by **M4A1** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:29 pm

Sorry, I guess I cant really comment on flying helicopters, Ive never been on one.

Those 2 of 16 that get Hornets, are they just lucky, or the best of the bunch throughout the training? What decides who goes where?

Also, is the salary as good as they make it? $40k for the first few years, then $60k when you bcome captain (how long oes this take?), then $76k 2 years after becomming Captain. Sounds pretty good. And you get a pension when you leave?

What are the contracts like, I think you initially sign for 7 years? Then what happens after those 7 years?

CH124 Driver · Post by **CH124 Driver** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:56 pm

under_par_00 wrote:Sorry, I guess I cant really comment on flying helicopters, Ive never been on one.

Those 2 of 16 that get Hornets, are they just lucky, or the best of the bunch throughout the training? What decides who goes where?

Also, is the salary as good as they make it? $40k for the first few years, then $60k when you bcome captain (how long oes this take?), then $76k 2 years after becomming Captain. Sounds pretty good. And you get a pension when you leave?

What are the contracts like, I think you initially sign for 7 years? Then what happens after those 7 years?

There were 3 guys that got jets on my course, only two of them went to Cold Lake, the other guy stayed in Moose Jaw to instruct on the Harvard. The three guys finished 1st, 2nd and 5th on the course. So there's other factors than just flying ability. It's a mystery to most guys how they choose it and I'm no different.

Your pay depends on your entry plan. DEO, you will start as a 2Lt (approx 40k) for one year, then Lt for 2 years (approx 46-50k) and then you're promoted to Capt. A Capt starts at 67K which includes Aircrew allowance and maxes out at around 100K. Then if you get promoted to Maj it goes higher. As a Sea King pilot I also get Sea Duty allowance which is $274 a month on top of my pay and aircrew allowance.

One more thing, you will not be promoted until you get your wings. At that time your promotions will be backdated to fit the above timeline.

You must serve 25 years to get a pension under the new terms of service. Anything less and you only get a return of contributions (what you paid into the pension fund)

The first contract is 9 years. Then you're on restricted release for 7 years after getting your wings. In my case it took 5 years to get my wings so I'll have 12 years in before I can leave the CF. Near the end of your contract you'll be offered an Intermediate Engagement which is the contract to take you to your pension. If you turn it down then you're out of the CF. There may be other options, but I signed the IE.

M4A1 · Post by **M4A1** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:15 pm

So, 3 years after you get your Wings, you get 67K. On the site it says it takes 2 years for your Wings. Is it usually more?

Do you have to be fluent in French? I know that you get 7 months second language training and maybe more. Does that training last for however long it takes you to learn French?

gryphon · Post by **gryphon** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:16 pm

Yeah, what 124 said....
Anyways, I'm a CF pilot as well.....flew fixed wing prior to (around 1300 hrs when I joined), wanted to fly helos from the start, ended up on Cormorants. And yes, I love it. I've seen both sides of the fence, and for me (I say again, for ME), I made the right choice (both military and rotary wing).

Hey Cheez....how's things in Bagtown? When are you going on course (sorry, I know, sore topic)?

DA900 · Post by **DA900** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:16 pm

CH124 Driver wrote: As a Sea King pilot I also get Sea Duty allowance which is $274 a month on top of my pay and aircrew allowance.

Sea King yikes I hope you are getting danger pay as well

You must serve 25 years to get a pension under the new terms of service. Anything less and you only get a return of contributions (what you paid into the pension fund)

Ahh the good ol 24 plus a day. Well if you decide to TC or RCMP you can always carry it over.

gryphon · Post by **gryphon** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:18 pm

DA....are you sure that you can carry over to RCMP? I know a few guys out west that got burned by that......didn't read the fine print I guess.

DA900 · Post by **DA900** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:32 pm

I was told you could, but you maybe right. It would not be the first time I was told you could then you couldn't. I guess get it in writing

CH124 Driver · Post by **CH124 Driver** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:21 pm

under_par_00 wrote:So, 3 years after you get your Wings, you get 67K. On the site it says it takes 2 years for your Wings. Is it usually more?

Do you have to be fluent in French? I know that you get 7 months second language training and maybe more. Does that training last for however long it takes you to learn French?

No, I wasn't clear I guess, the 3 years starts the day you enroll, or the day you're promoted to 2Lt which ever happens later. I was promoted to 2Lt in May of 2000, I got my wings in Apr of 2004, my promotion and pay were backdated for Lt effective May 2001 and Capt effective May 2003.

If you did the training continuously, it would take about 2 years, but there's always delays and in my case it took 4 years after I finished school.

Clear as mud?

You don't require a language profile until you get promoted to Maj, I guess since you're an officer they want to get you started so that you can practice the language throughout your early years.

M4A1 · Post by **M4A1** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:15 pm

[quote="CH124 Driver]

No, I wasn't clear I guess, the 3 years starts the day you enroll, or the day you're promoted to 2Lt which ever happens later. I was promoted to 2Lt in May of 2000, I got my wings in Apr of 2004, my promotion and pay were backdated for Lt effective May 2001 and Capt effective May 2003.
[/quote]

lol, I still don't understand.

So, even though you had 3 years in, you should technically be making $67k but since you didn't have your Wings, you couldn't make that so they held it off until you got your wings?

CH124 Driver · Post by **CH124 Driver** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:09 pm

under_par_00 wrote:
CH124 Driver wrote:
No, I wasn't clear I guess, the 3 years starts the day you enroll, or the day you're promoted to 2Lt which ever happens later. I was promoted to 2Lt in May of 2000, I got my wings in Apr of 2004, my promotion and pay were backdated for Lt effective May 2001 and Capt effective May 2003.
lol, I still don't understand.

So, even though you had 3 years in, you should technically be making $67k but since you didn't have your Wings, you couldn't make that so they held it off until you got your wings?

Yes, you can't be promoted until you get your wings, so when you do get your wings they backpay you as if you had been promoted following the 3 year timeline. I was a 2Lt making $40k a year for 4 years until I got my wings. When I got my wings, I was promoted from 2Lt to Capt and I received $22k in backpay and started making $67k (1st year Capt, I missed going right to 2nd year Capt by a month).

They're not going to pay you as a winged Capt until you are a winged Capt in case you can't make it through the training, hence the wait until you do make it through.

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:03 pm

April 2006 for Moose Jaw.

I can't really complain though. Summer is so much better than winter here and as an OJT there is lots of time for golfing and whatnot(particularly with the squadron at flag). Buying a car tomorrow. Sea Survival in a month. Life is good. Hoping to get posted to Cold Lake or Edmonton sometime this summer too. Gotta get out before it snows again. They mentioned Greenwood when I asked to move but not so much.

Also I can go flying now, really helps with the quality of life.

For RCMP time, you can carry it in to the forces(there was a 25 year RCMP vet on my Basic course going reserves to add more to it) I dunno why you wouldn't be able to carry forces time into the RCMP.

M4A1 · Post by **M4A1** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:18 pm

Ahh, I understand now, thanks. Sounds pretty good.

Whats the typical day in the Air Force? Ive read that some people only fly a few hours a month (one person from the Air Force website had something like 13 years in and 1200 hours), and others fly often. What exactly do you do all the time?

And what is that Sea Survival course? Sounds scary, lol.

Also, about French. Did you have to go through that 7 month French program?

classiv · Post by **classiv** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:26 pm

I've always wanted to know how many hours on average an F-18 driver has when he solos the F-18 for the first time...

It's he a 200 hour wonder?

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:43 pm

Sea Survival scary? Maybe if you did it in February. I think your biggest hazard in that is a sunburn.

French you will have to do, takes 33 weeks if you don't already know it.

I can only really speak about the Hornets since thats the only place I've been posted but in any given day the guys will do 1 flight (1.5 Hours) and a great deal of mission planning and follow up. Pretty much every flight the pilots are learning something or teaching it(this takes time). Someone also works the Ops desk anytime a plane is airborne and for every excercise and deployment, at least one person is responsible for planning. Also the "Quick Reaction Aircraft" need to be manned at all times. These are the guys that were recently on CNN for intercepting the Virgin flight. Also, even though there's lots to do, you will still get 5 weeks vacation each year and unless you're in the QRA you'll have weekends and generally, evenings off.

The military is not a place to build hours. People get that mindset from the civie world but it's not right. In the civie world they don't let you fly high performance turbines with 29 hours of experience. F-18 with 200 hours. You will however get a good quality of life, good pay, and intense flying.

M4A1 · Post by **M4A1** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:02 am

TheCheez wrote:French you will have to do, takes 33 weeks if you don't already know it.

So you need to be fluent, or just pass the 33 week course? I only have grade 9 French, and I forget it all.

How many people in your group got picked to be on the Hornets, Transport, and helicopters?

CH124 Driver · Post by **CH124 Driver** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:11 am

under_par_00 wrote:
TheCheez wrote:French you will have to do, takes 33 weeks if you don't already know it.
So you need to be fluent, or just pass the 33 week course? I only have grade 9 French, and I forget it all.

How many people in your group got picked to be on the Hornets, Transport, and helicopters?

There is no pass or fail. Depending on your performance you're given a certain language profile.

To be fluent in a second language takes a hell of a lot longer than 33 weeks.

As for a typical day, there isn't one. If you're flying you're prepping for the mission, doing weather briefings, mission briefings, etc.

If you're not flying, then you're studying (yes it's true, that never stops) for your next upgrade or requirement or just reviewing AOIs (Aircraft operating instructions). There's time to go to the gym and whatever else may pop up like weapons training (once a year for C7 and pistol), there's NBCD training, egress, etc. Also as Cheez mentioned, you'll usually get tasked with a secondary duty like working the ops desk or scheduling.

We don't usually refer to people as 200hr wonders in the military, you're winged and you're expected to be quite proficient at flying. If you're not, you won't make it through since there's limited extra time avail. It's quite different from civvie flying in that respect. Imagine if you had 45hrs to get a PPL with up to 4 hours of extra time avail. So at a max of 49 hours, if you can't pass the flight test, you will never be able to get a PPL ever again. That's Moose Jaw. If you run out of time, you're fooked.