Firespotters necessary?

[Rudy]

Are these planes flying around northern ontario looking for fires still necessary? Now we have PC12's etc. blasting around all over at 25000 feet all day long. Why am I still paying for a redundant aircraft to scout the same areas? Just give the pilots an incentive to keep their eyes peeled (hundred bucks a fire). We used to get mugs that when you put hot coffee in them flames appeared on the side to everyones delight but they cut that. So now when I see a fire I might keep my mouth shut unless I think it's going to hurt someone. I won't even get into the fact that we're protecting these forest so we can clear cut them later. Maybe I'm just ranting again.

[russellp]

That's a pretty good rant Rudy. Are fire spotters necessary and further is fire fighting necessary? Well maybe I'll answer in terms that are relative to this forum. When a pilot plans a flight and then during the flight encounters terrible unexpected headwinds that cut into his fuel reserves he has to pick a shorter destination and so his original objective is not attained. Same thing for provincial budgets and timber supply. Provincial budgets are planned incorporating a fairly steady flow of timber supply which funds hospital, roads etc. The timber supply is forecasted, just like fuel supply, and the rate of cut is based on that, if we stop fighting fires our even flow supply of timber is shot to hell and provinical budget objective are thus shot. We will still have money coming in but we will not know how much and planning will be that much more difficult....pilots and foresters included need reliable plans and data or else their lives become a lot harder.

[shitdisturber]

Maybe I'm just ranting again.

Ya think?

[Rudy]

Yeah, good points but lets stay on topic here. Are these spotter planes a wise investment when we have many other aircraft in the areas who could do the same job at a substantial savings to the tax payer? Could they do the same job?

[Rudy]

Maybe I'm just ranting again.

Ya think?

Hahaha. Coming for "shitdisturber" even. I should go back to work before I really stir up so shit.

[Driving Rain]

Are these planes flying around northern ontario looking for fires still necessary? Now we have PC12's etc. blasting around all over at 25000 feet all day long. Why am I still paying for a redundant aircraft to scout the same areas? Just give the pilots an incentive to keep their eyes peeled (hundred bucks a fire). We used to get mugs that when you put hot coffee in them flames appeared on the side to everyones delight but they cut that. So now when I see a fire I might keep my mouth shut unless I think it's going to hurt someone. I won't even get into the fact that we're protecting these forest so we can clear cut them later. Maybe I'm just ranting again.

The beauty of fire patrol flights is that the patrol can be arranged to scout the area of most interest when and where it'll do the most good. Did you know that every lightning strike is recorded and mapped? Did you know that fires spring up at peak burn times usually in the afternoon from 1300 to 1600 hours or later depending on conditions ...didn't think so!
Civilians do call in the majority of fires but usually they call them in after they've grown to be giants or difficult to control. We can map lightning but not stupidity.
As for not fighting fires give me a break. Lets shut every mill and lay off thousands of people and close whole towns down because the great RUDY thinks it a waste. Did you make that decision based on a Nature of Things program? Hey Rudy, please send back the $2500 that forestry in this province puts in your pocket indirectly each year because that's what it adds up to for every man woman and child.
My advice to you Rudy is don't think CALL THE FIRE IN cup or no cup.
End Rant
Driving Rain

[Rudy]

Yeah, once again I don't want to get into whether we should be fighting fires or not and I swear this thread has nothing to do with me being woke up by a 337 this morning. Is this mapping of lightning available online or to pilots in any way?

[Doc]

See your point Rudy. At the start of every fire season, we used to get MNR maps. Then, if we spotted a fire, we could call it in using the map number. Now, with GPS and the northern sky just filled with airplanes that can, and do spot fires, why the 337's.....good bloody question! And the 337 isn't the best airplane for the job.....blinded in a turn....but womebody was able to do a sales job on the MNR!!

[180]

Without the 337's, where would we get our 500 hours of multi-PIC from?

[CLguy]

Rudy says [quote]blasting around all over at 25000 feet all day long.[/quote]

Rudy I don't want to get dispatched to any fire you spot from 25,000 feet. I want to get dispatched to the one detection picks up that is just a barely visible whisp of smoke rising out of the trees. The whole secret to successful fire supression is early detection followed by aggressive initial attack.

No doubt commercial operators report a lot of the fires we attack and trust me I am very greatful for that, but fire managers can't rely on a commercial aircraft being in the vicinity of a lightning storm or area of extreme hazards. Chances are a commercial aircraft will pass those areas but how long after the lightning or how many times a day. Organized patrols can assure fire managers that an area has been looked over when needed.

All lightning hits in the province are recorded and tracked on MNR lightning monitors. They are mapped on a screen with the date and time of the strike in the duty room so the duty officer can see where and the amount of strikes a certain area is receiving. The problem with lightning is that depending on the rain associated with it, fires may not occur for a week a more. They will just smolder away and when the conditions are right a fire starts. That is when detection really proves itself. You can't have fires popping up and not know for sure if a commercial aircraft may be in that area at that time to spot them.

Personally I think you are ranting!!

[Driving Rain]

See your point Rudy. At the start of every fire season, we used to get MNR maps.

No wonder I couldn't get any maps ....they gave em to you!

If you've got any maps with the old 6 number squares and they're in good condition, they're gold. The north west corner of every square is the rounded off lat and long for that position. Sure makes programing the GPS a breeze.

[Out of Control]

Rudy- People make a living flying for forestry. Shut up and do your job, mind your own bus.

[Flying Low]

Valid question Rudy; here's my 2 cents!

First of all the MNR generally targets areas of higher risk and plans the routing of the spotting aircraft accordingly. The idea is to spot a fire when it is as small as possible. I flew the spotters in the summer of 2003 and 2004 and speaking from experience; the summer of 2003 I called in countless small fires that the ground crews and bombers caught before they got out of hand (including one within 100 metres of a house in Nakina). Needless to say...we didn't spot a lot last summer. Most of these little fires you would never see from 25000' until they became too big to handle in high and extreme fire risk conditions.

As for the 337...it is a great aircraft for the job. Manoeuverable and quick enough for the job. As for being blind in a turn???? The wing is behind the cockpit (due to weight distribution of the rear engine) so unless you sit very high and are looking at the top of the window frame you should have no problem.

[...]

Rudy says

blasting around all over at 25000 feet all day long.[/quote]

Rudy I don't want to get dispatched to any fire you spot from 25,000 feet. I want to get dispatched to the one detection picks up that is just a barely visible whisp of smoke rising out of the trees. The whole secret to successful fire supression is early detection followed by aggressive initial attack.

No doubt commercial operators report a lot of the fires we attack and trust me I am very greatful for that, but fire managers can't rely on a commercial aircraft being in the vicinity of a lightning storm or area of extreme hazards. Chances are a commercial aircraft will pass those areas but how long after the lightning or how many times a day. Organized patrols can assure fire managers that an area has been looked over when needed.

All lightning hits in the province are recorded and tracked on MNR lightning monitors. They are mapped on a screen with the date and time of the strike in the duty room so the duty officer can see where and the amount of strikes a certain area is receiving. The problem with lightning is that depending on the rain associated with it, fires may not occur for a week a more. They will just smolder away and when the conditions are right a fire starts. That is when detection really proves itself. You can't have fires popping up and not know for sure if a commercial aircraft may be in that area at that time to spot them.

Personally I think you are ranting!!

[/quote]





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what he said.

[Bede]

As for the 337...it is a great aircraft for the job. Manoeuverable and quick enough for the job. As for being blind in a turn???? The wing is behind the cockpit (due to weight distribution of the rear engine) so unless you sit very high and are looking at the top of the window frame you should have no problem.

BH, do you ever stop raving about the God forsaken 337. It is so ugly


FH

[Flying Low]

FH:

I'd rave about my current plane but everytime I get near someone with it they plug their ears!

[scotothedoublet]

Couldn't they just use satellite shots of the known lightning strikes or themal imaging? Probably too expensive, or is that what they use to figure out the high risk areas already? I suppose it wouldn't really work if there were an overcast layer. In any event, hate to see good timber go to waste.

[Rudy]

Hah, "The stupidest post of all time"? Probably not, I think it brought out some good points. "Shutup and mind my own business because this is how some people make their living"? Well said. Anyways, off to work tomorrow for another rotation so I'll lay off the shit disturbing for a while.

ps. Keep your 337's and bring back the mugs and I'll keep my mouth shut. Rant over.

[Dockjock]

But what will do Rudy's job here while he's away on rotation? Nothing. Damn fine job, too.

[...]

Couldn't they just use satellite shots of the known lightning strikes or themal imaging? Probably too expensive, or is that what they use to figure out the high risk areas already? I suppose it wouldn't really work if there were an overcast layer. In any event, hate to see good timber go to waste.

I lighting strike may not produce any type of flame up for up to 7-10 days after the fact. It smolders in the tree(s) until the conditions are just right for a flame up. I once saw a chart that recorded 76,000 strikes over night in NWO. If we save a large fire every season..the fire program has paid for itself.

Although forest fires are a natural process of regeneration and mankind always finds a way of getting in Mother Nature's way for her natural cycle. We do a great job of 'protecting' the forest so much that the wood gets so old that when she burns...she burns hot and thus going deep into the soil and sets back the growth of new generation of buds, or kills them all together. Again, we have changed the landscape.

However, it's a small price to pay in exchange for 300 Multi-PIC and a step closer to the 'glory' of one day walking through Terminal 2 with bananas on your shoulders and a 'rolly-bag' tagging behind you.

Hey but what do I know....I'm livin' the dream.

[just curious]

a 'rolly-bag' tagging behind you.

As long as testosterone runs through my vanes I won't be seen carting a rolly bag.

I used to call in fires back in the day all the time. In return, I got a good hunting knife, a cheesy baseball hat, a good sharpening stone, a good coffee mug, a thermos, and a jacket.

I got good at pointing out the type of fuel, size, nearest access, values and all that. This was all done whilst driving a 185, 'Jo or airliner to places with the first name Fort, or the last name Lake.

But I never really knew whether a lot of the places I was spotting were the base for a trapline some old coffin dodger really depended on, or an abandoned shack. I never knew whether a spot was ripe for burning, because MNR wanted a local spot for a new moos yard, or to kill off a budworm infestation. That's a spotter's job.

Now that I'm an old arctic hand, and there are a lot less trees, I don't do that much reporting. A couple years ago, near town, 'cause I like my house, but beyond that, the NWT resources department is cheap. They got bunch of Swiss Army knives to give out to fire reporters, then dealt them out throughout the department. Reporters got squat. Now I give fires a fighting chance. Tanker pilots gotta stay current too.

[hz2p]

I was thinking ... don't the environmentalists get upset about us fighting fires?

The left-wing mantra is that "nature" is "good", and anything humans do is "bad" and "unnatural".

Therefore, lightening strikes would be "natural" and forest fires "good", and us humans putting them out would be "bad".

What did the forests do, millions of years ago, before we had airplanes to try to save them?

It's a good thing that environmentalists rarely leave the big city.

[backon3]

Yeah, Cl Guy good point, couldnt agree more. It's funny how tankers and smoke patrol are a waste of money... until the fire is 100m from your house!!

[cyyz]

I think we should bring this one step further.. I mean, pilots fly just for the "love of flying," hell we don't even need to pay them...

Funny how the teachers "teach for the children" yet their pay keeps going up, but we have the "brainiacs" in this industry who come up with their brilliant "thoughts."

Shutup and mind my own business because this is how some people make their living

Bravo, we need more Out of Controls and maybe this industry will start climbing instead of sinking.

[desksgo]

However, it's a small price to pay in exchange for 300 Multi-PIC and a step closer to the 'glory' of one day walking through Terminal 2 with bananas on your shoulders and a 'rolly-bag' tagging behind you.

Hey but what do I know....I'm livin' the dream.

Actually, about that dream. I'm forming a team of 7 computer super geeks and will be putting two of these aircraft at every base. My super geeks versus your.....airplane drivers. You had better not be thinking of lighting a (s)moke within 100nm of our flight path. We'll have a bomber on you like a fat kid on a smartie.



Naturally, this won't make rampies and airplane detailing technicians obsolete.