Use of radio's in flight training

[Class 1 Instructor]

The other thread on radios seems to have hit Vne and exploded but the topic does hit a bit of a personal nerve because in general it is an area that IMO FTU's are not doing particularly well at, especially at the ab initio level

The other thread dealt with a particularly narrow point of questioning, but IMHO a few simple general rules consistently and diligently applied by instructors would measurably improve students use of the radio when teaching the PPL. They are:

1) Make every student wait a few seconds before transmitting after a frequency change to avoid interfering with an existing conversation.

2) Before every flight take 2 minutes and practice a few calls with the student. That is pick a random part of the flight and play ATC. Be a hard case and make the student repeat the call until it is perfect.

3) Set the best possible example when you are talking on the radio. It is easy especially after a long day or when you are bored, to either take short cuts ( eg "upta 2.5 ABC", instead of "climbing two thousand five hundred ABC" or waste airtime with "witty" observations, irrelevant asides, slang etc etc. Particularly for ab initio, their only point of reference is you. If you set a bad example that is what the student will do, and the cycle continues

The above it is pretty motherhood, but it takes discipline on the part of the instructor to consistently apply it. Be that instructor.....

[Colonel Sanders]

Is this really the major error of your students?

They don't have any problems with forced approaches?
Navigation? Diversions? Steep turns? Crosswind landings?

There are an awful lot of things that most student pilots
seriously need work on, before I would nag them with
R/T chickensh1t.

I have doubts you would approve, but if there is one thing I
like to teach students, is to not rely upon the comm radio,
because it's a piece of sh1t by design. When you most need
it - when the traffic is heaviest - it will not function correctly.

Heck, when you get more than 10 VFR aircraft on a frequency,
it's even money that someone will have a stuck PTT and will
treat everyone to their intercom discussion.

Visit OSH sometime to learn how to use a comm radio when
it's busy. They won't even let pilots talk on the radio, which
is interesting commentary on the subject.

I like to turn the comm radio off. The student pilots panic,
then start to look outside for traffic, which suits me fine.

An even better lesson is to turn the master off completely,
and have the student complete the lesson and fly back to
the airport with no electrical power whatsoever.

[Class 1 Instructor]

Well I fly out of a pretty busy airport and the amount of F*uck ups caused by poor communications with ATC is rather disheartening. You have to talk on the radio and it is just as easy and doesn't take anymore time to teach pilots how to do it do right.

I am hardly suggesting that is the biggest problem in flight training, just a problem and something that is eminently fixable with a bit of basic care by instructors. My observation has been the instructors that sweat good radio work tend to sweat a lot of other even more important stuff like, attaining and maintaining the pitch correct attitude for every phase of flight, and keeping the aircraft in trim and holding a steady altitude and not chasing the airspeed on final etc etc. The instructors who are sound like crap seem to me to often create crap PPL's too.....

So how does this work on the Avcanada training forum ? Only the "big" problems of flight training are allowed to be discussed ?

[cgzro]

i find the students on the whole not bad its us sunday sunny day people that seem to tie things up more.

[gustind]

Wow I started reading that other thread where I left off and I am speechless.

Well I myself have been called a radio nazi and that other thread is way too personal to be posting this so I shall do so here.

The use of the radio is something progressive in flight training. Often the PGI on exercise 30 is missed or a hand-out of common phrases is given in lieu of a PGI or in addition to a short one. The point being is that the use of the radio is not properly taught often during ab-initio training. Here are a list of phrases or "choice of words" that I advocate to students and drill into CPL students:

> Departure vs. take-off when calling tower while holding short
> You don't roll down a runway, you take-off. You don't line up for an immediate departure, you take-off.
> You don't call lining up for take-off while there is still landing traffic on the runway. Lining up or lining up and waiting.
> You don't call "rolling crossing" an intersecting runway while taxiing.
> When making radio calls, around an airport, try not to use names of towns or streets as unfamiliar pilots will be clueless. Instead use a dist/bearing to a known point. If it is blatantly obvious that you are over something huge or noticeable, go ahead.
> Don't respond to everything ATC tells you if VFR (callsign only sometimes). Always read back an altimeter setting and of course, callsign last.
> I am personally not a big advocate of people calling overhead the field (when joining a mid downwind) or turning base. Obviously exceptions occur where there is noticeable traffic.
> It is not "flight following" it is "radar surveillance"
> Conflicting traffic please advise (If I ever catch my students saying that....)

Overall be smart and efficient on the radio. Please feel free to flame away and offer your opinions as I am open to different thoughts.

[Beefitarian]

I'm going with teach them to be clear, brief and accurate.

Springbank tower this is gulf X-ray X-ray X-ray.

When they acknowledge, "X-ray X-ray X-ray this is Springbank tower go ahead." you tell them where you are and what you'd like to do.

X-ray X-ray X-ray over Cochrane lake at 7500 feet with information hotel inbound for full stop.

If you miss something ask.

X-ray X-ray X-ray say again heading?

[Class 1 Instructor]

> Don't respond to everything ATC tells you if VFR (callsign only sometimes). Always read back an altimeter setting and of course, callsign last.

Overall be smart and efficient on the radio. Please feel free to flame away and offer your opinions as I am open to different thoughts.

I get my students to read back every route and altitude clearance every time. Yes legally you only have to acknowledge with your call signs but like everything else when doing ab initio instruction, the more practice the student gets doing something, in this case talking on the radio, on the better they are. It also has the advantage of ensuring the student has actually got the message and is not just replying with their call sign as a pavlovian response, even though they don't really understand the instruction/clearance. I know ATC at my home drome hate me for this but, too bad, it works and I get plenty of complements on how good my students sound on the radio.

Students who are smart and efficient on the radio, sounds good to me.

[Colonel Sanders]

I get my students to read back every route and altitude clearance every time

I would prefer that my students can land only on the upwind
main in a strong crosswind, aileron full over, and keep the
other two tires in the air during the rollout of a touch and
go landing.

But I guess some instructors think it's more important that
their students sound like late-night FM DJ's on the radio.

When it comes to the radio, less is more. This becomes
obvious when the frequency is busy.

[5x5]

Hmmm, interesting that someone who starts a thread on proper use of a radio would makes this comment...

I get my students to read back every route and altitude clearance every time.

followed by an admission like this

Yes legally you only have to acknowledge with your call signs

Rationalizing incorrect procedures because you personally feel it's better your way isn't the best instructional approach there is. Reading back parts of VFR clearances rather than just replying with your call sign not only congests airspace unnecessarily, it gives a false sense of security. ATC is not expecting any read-back, so are they actually going to validate what is repeated? And on what basis? If the student/pilot reads back some of the clearance, did they understand it all? Should they be asked to clarify/restate the rest? And as the student realizes you are getting them to pick and choose how they conduct radio calls, what's to stop them from adding in all the stuff YOU feel is unnecessary?

Isn't it best to teach students the proper way to do things when there are clearly defined processes? Like there are for radio calls.

[Class 1 Instructor]

The AIM and other TC documents don't say that you can't or even should not read back any part of a VFR clearance or instruction, only that it is permitted to reply with only your 3 letter call sign for VFR flight. For IFR flight readbacks are required.

I find that virtually all 705 operators read back everything, and yes before you jump on me I realize that 705 is pretty much all IFR but they do read back all taxi clearances which is not required and is the SOP at the company I fly for. This is done because it provides a double check that you got it right.

My point is that just replying "ABC" to every radio call doesn't teach ab initio students how to talk on the radio. My personal experience has been that reading back the important parts of an ATC clearance, primarily routes and altitudes, forces the student to process and verbalize what was said and significantly improves student performance. This is not presented as "YOU MUST DO THIS OR YOU ARE A BAD INSTRUCTOR" but merely as a suggestion and something to think about. Don't like it or don't agree, fine, tell us why and everybody learns.

Colonel Sanders: I am not sure why you are so hostile to my posting. I never said or even implied that the ability to accurately control the aircraft is less important to radio work, only that radio work happens to be the subject of this post.

I don't think that when ATC says "ABC proceed direct to XXXXXX, climb and maintain 3500 feet" and my private pilot student replies with "Direct XXXXX climb 3500, ABC"; it makes them sound like "Late night FM DJ's".

I am also guessing that you are going to do something if your student who is an ace at rolling down the runway on one wheel, sounds like a gibbering idiot on the radio, right ? Or are you just going to tell him talking on the radio isn't important so avoid it if possible and don't worry about it ?

[Old Dog Flying]

C1I: It was guys like you that made my job in ATC so bloody difficult and frustrating...I worked a couple of the busiest towers in the country and the long winded readbacks which 90% of the time were wrong did nothing but cause confusion and a times a hazardous situations.
KISS..WHO, Where, WHAT and only read back Hold Short when VFR

Barney the Grinch of ZBB

And by the way, I too was a flight instructor for nearly 40 years.

[Colonel Sanders]

why you are so hostile to my posting

Hostile? Who's hostile?

Both the FIG and TP5537E emphasize, over and over
and over and over again, that major errors are to be
corrected before minor errors. I hope you would agree
with that, otherwise you are contravening CAR 405.14.

Lack of control of the aircraft is a major error. I hope
you would agree with that. It is a serious problem in
general aviation; 60% of GA accidents occur during
takeoff or landing, generally under not very challenging
conditions. This is entirely due to poor flight instruction,
I suspect from flight instructors such as yourself that
don't think that aircraft control is important.

Not sounding like a late-night FM DJ on the VHF comm
radio is distinctly a minor error. Remember, Aviate,
Navigate, and only then Communicate. Learn to prioritize,
something else that PPL's don't do very well, again likely
due to poor flight instruction.

I think there is an awful lot of substandard flight instruction
out there. Sometimes as a result of not caring, other times
as a result of good intentions.

To paraphrase von Richthofen, aircraft control is king. All
else is chickensh1t, of which you appear to be a major supplier.

My student pilots:








Here's the deal. You keep pushing your chickensh1t, and I'll keep
teaching people to fly airplanes.

WHO, Where, WHAT and only read back Hold Short when VFR

Truer words were never spoken. Don't try to sound like an airline
pilot or a late-night FM DJ on the frikken VHF comm. A pro uses
the minimum number of syllables required, to reduce frequency
congestion.

[gaamin]

Edit

[woodzi]

I was fortunate to receive some tailwheel training from a very well known (and very good) aerobatic pilot. I thought my radio work was OK, but I think he beat me up more for that than anything else.

I'm glad he did because I made sure I reviewed the correct procedures and now feel much more comfortable when in busy airspace and I can focus on flying the airplane instead of worrying about the radio work.

[Cat Driver]

The more flight training changes the more it remains the same as far as new instructors thinking they have a better idea on how to teach lessons that have been taught by others since the dawn of aviation.

Class 1 looks like a clone of 767 who decided he had a better way to teach stall recovery s.

I wonder if 767 made it to a class 1 yet....wouldn't surprise me.

[iflyforpie]

767 is in a class of his own.....

[Cat Driver]

767 is in a class of his own.....

True, but class 1 is about to dethrone him by the looks of it.

Reading this stuff makes me almost get on my knees and thank God or Allah or whoever that I don't own a FTU anymore.

Just imagine trying to deal with this on a daily basis.

[Shiny Side Up]

When it comes to the radio, less is more. This becomes
obvious when the frequency is busy.

Lots of pilots should be educated on what the term "hot mike jamming" entails. We're not talking about raspberry.

[Colonel Sanders]

I wonder if 767 made it to a class 1 yet

There are an awful lot of class one instructors out there
that have some pretty peculiar ideas, and are not very
effective teachers. I keep having to clean up after them.

I might as well make it official:

Have you flunked your initial class 4 flight instructor
ride? If so, come to me and we'll fix you up.

[Ramjet555]

Station Bored, say again call sign

[Ramjet555]

Speaking of turning off the master switch,
It's amazing how a stationary prop
suddenly achieves the perfect forced landing.

[Shiny Side Up]

Have you flunked your initial class 4 flight instructor
ride? If so, come to me and we'll fix you up.

Out of curiosity Colonel, how many class 4s are flunking rides out that way would you say as a percentage? At least maybe then TC is doing their job of not passing through substandard work. More distressing is I find there are a lot of class 4s who do have the rating and should not, which indicates not only are Class ones not doing their job, but neither are some DFTEs or inspectors.

Don't know about you, but I'm starting a list of Class ones out there I'd like to find and punch in the belly from the work they've done.

[photofly]

ATC people receive ongoing formal training to make transmissions as safe and efficient as able.

Each time I attended a briefing with them, be it in the quiet prairies or on the busy wet coast, their main beef with pilots, by far, was too much readback/ too many words.

That's interesting, but not conclusive. I don't believe pilots provide readbacks merely to gain approval from ATC; it follows that disapproval from a straw poll of ATC officers isn't a definitive indicator of poor radio technique.

As a corollary, I question how much notice ATC officers would take of a straw poll of pilots about what ATC does that annoys the pilots. Sometimes extra levels of safety can be "annoying", until suddenly they're the only thing standing between a pilot and a tragedy.


(Could someone please fix the punctuation in the thread title? The use of radio's what, exactly? Thanks.)

[HHI]

My point is that just replying "ABC" to every radio call doesn't teach ab initio students how to talk on the radio. My personal experience has been that reading back the important parts of an ATC clearance, primarily routes and altitudes, forces the student to process and verbalize what was said and significantly improves student performance. This is not presented as "YOU MUST DO THIS OR YOU ARE A BAD INSTRUCTOR" but merely as a suggestion and something to think about. Don't like it or don't agree, fine, tell us why and everybody learns.

I do not agree.

When the frequency is congested, a better method is the instructor using the intercom to ask the student what they thought the clearance meant and address any misunderstandings over the intercom if (if flight conditions and traffic watch permit).

Or even better - review the mistake or misinterpretation during the post flight debrief in a quiet environment where the student can devote full attention, instead of a busy cockpit environment with many external pressures.

Intercom discussion or post flight review also assists reducing non-essential frequency congestion.

HHI

PS as you said, 705 operations are predominantly IFR and multi-crew operating at a large variety of airports. Their SOP's generally DO require readbacks (for very good reasons) and I don't see ANY relevance of including comments on radio procedures at 705 operators with "Use of radio's in flight training"

[padre12]

VFR: read back only the A/C ident and any hold short instructions - that's it; IFR: read back everything except for a SID.

Of course, my favourite case is when I get called in an airplane with a student and a complicated clearance ('cause the controller knows I'm up there) and the student acknowledges the clearance with a readback of the ident, and then turns to me and says: "so..what did he say?"

In teaching radios, don't forget to break complex issues into manageable parts: when space and traffic permit, I used to break it up first into transmissions (WHO you are, WHERE you are, WHAT you want to do) and have students give me the radio call before pressing TX, and then I would deal with the reply. Then, once they have TX'ing figured out (over multiple flights) I then get them to work on the replies, and what they might expect to hear. (Caution: don't be complacent and assume that the controller told you only what you expected to hear...! )

Ok, enough radio rants for now: VTB - cleared en route...

padre12