When HRSDC has to chose between Canadians and Foreigners

[Gilles Hudicourt]

On November 8th 2012, 30 freshly laid off Air Transat pilots submitted a proposal to HRSDC: instead of paying them Employment Insurance and providing 151 foreign pilots with work permits to come and work for Sunwing and Canjet, why not finance their training on the Boeing 737 so that they would be able to apply to Sunwing and Canjet instead of the foreigners.

HRSDC didn't even send them an email to acknowledge reception of their proposal. They were simply ignored. No no thank you letter, no "sorry but we can't" letter, nothing.

On Oct 25, HRSDC had already approved 3 LMOs for 32 foreign pilot position for Canjet in Montreal, Quebec and Toronto.
On Nov 13, they had already approved another LMO for Sunwing for 60 foreign Pilots.

It is however on November 30th, 22 days after these pilots submitted their proposal that HRSDC approved yet another LMP to Sunwing for an additional 60 foreign pilots.

Here is the proposal these un-employed Canadian pilots submitted to HRSDC:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/1wzn7rDb ... sp=sharing

[fivemoreminutes]

That's a bit misleading. Didn't Canjet interview and hire a bunch of AT guys. I believe they are at sim right now. Funny how we haven't heard any of this.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

That's a bit misleading. Didn't Canjet interview and hire a bunch of AT guys. I believe they are at sim right now. Funny how we haven't heard any of this.

A bunch ?
About 60 Air Transat pilots were laid off. Canjet hired 32 foreign workers and after that hired a few AT pilots. I do not know the exact number but it's just a few from what I heard. And again some of those they took were ex CJ pilots with 737 ratings.

[Gorgons]

Hypothetical question... What if the people that do the hiring at SWG just didn't like any of the laid off candidates that applied? Didn’t feel their personalities were a good fit for the company or some other soft skill wasn’t quite what they wanted?

In this day and age of globalization I have a hard time accepting this idea of entitlement based on passport or that it should trump a private company’s right to operate its company and short term hiring practices as it see's fit.

[imc]

They hired 5 from AT. Only one is endorsed.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

In this day and age of globalization I have a hard time accepting this idea of entitlement based on passport or that it should trump a private company’s right to operate its company and short term hiring practices as it see's fit.

Not passport: licence.

From the Canadian Gazette, the newspaper where all Canadian laws and Regulations are first printed:

CAR 401.07 (Validation of Foreign Licences)

The amendment to CAR 401.07 (Validation of Foreign Licences) prevents an applicant for a foreign licence validation certificate from being a permanent resident of Canada. Under existing regulations, the holder of a foreign flight crew licence issued by a contracting state(see footnote 2), other than Canada, must satisfy only the applicable requirements in the Canadian personnel licensing standards upon applying for a foreign licence validation certificate. This amendment adds the prohibition that the applicant may not permanently reside in Canada. The change emphasizes the transitory nature of the foreign licence validation certificate. Personnel Licensing and Training Standard 421.07 (Validation of Foreign Licences) limits the maximum duration for which such a certificate may be valid to one year from the date of issue. This Standard also sets forth the list of purposes for which such a certificate may be issued. While the issuance of the foreign licence validation certificate accepts the standards of training and operations within the original licensing country, these restrictions upon the duration and purposes of such a certificate minimize the potential exposure of Canadian operators and the Canadian licensing system to possibly less stringent standards.

This is what they refer to in that Statement:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2011/ ... drunk.html

NEW DELHI—For more than a decade on at least 6,500 flights, Air India captain J. K. Verma welcomed passengers aboard and invited them to sit back and relax as he flew them to destinations across this expansive and fast-growing nation.
This week, Verma, who has flown for Air India since 1989, was exposed as a fraudster who obtained his job with India’s national carrier thanks to a forged commercial pilot’s licence that police say he bought for about $26,000.
But what’s even more shocking and alarming than Verma’s prolonged scam is that he may not be the only fraudster at the controls of a jumbo jet.

[whipline]

Except Gilles the contract pilots do our training. If they don't pass they get a bus ride home.

As a tax payer I don't want to fund 60 type ratings. I wouldn't have sent them a response either.

[TrailerParkBoy]

So if they still have to do training, there must be a cost to that! So why give an opportunity to Foreign Contract Pilots and not a Canadian Licenced (well qualified) Pilot?

The cost of training sounds like a lot, but the tax payers will still be paying for the unemployed pilot anyways!

What morally makes more sense?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

As a tax payer I don't want to fund 60 type ratings. I wouldn't have sent them a response either.

As a tax payer, you are now paying for 90+ ALPA pilots on EI, plus whatever number of other non-ALPA that may be out there.

[proper]

Kick them out, that's what makes sense.
I am amazed this is even up for debate. No other country in the world would officially, legally tolerate this.
Good Job Gilles we are behind you.

[RVR6000]

We have to get some media contacts, these practices have to be made public. Someone must have a contact with one of major newspapers they should help Gilles publish someone of these government practices.

[Gino Under]

whipline - "As a tax payer I don't want to fund 60 type ratings. I wouldn't have sent them a response either."

Well, as a taxpayer I'd like my Government to not only respect the laws of this country and the very regulations that they themselves write and pass into law. But conceptualize this, fellow taxpayer, the notion that they are also sworn to and expected to enforce those regulations and laws. Aren't our elected politicians earning their incomes from the very same taxpayer dollars you and I both faithfully contribute to each payday?

As a taxpayer I don't wish to fund (with those same taxpayer dollars) the time, effort, and cost of the legislative process of writing and passing into law these regulations and laws if the Government we elect isn't going to enforce them. Why aren't they?
Many pilots in this land want, expect, and deserve an answer!

When responsible persons like Gilles H. or Dan A. take the time and make the effort to write a reasonable request for answers from those Ministers responsible, unlike yourself, I DO expect an answer and so should you. It's simple democracy in action.

...as for type ratings

Since most respectable professional airlines in Canada DO pay for type ratings which has been the accepted practice since the ***kin' Balloon, it can accurately be stated that un-professional airlines like Sunwing and Canjet care more about money, profit and shareholder interests than they do about preserving the piloting profession in Canada (which IMHO is a corporate responsibility) preferring instead to seize any competitive or financial advantage they can at all costs, except money. I'd consider it investing in their own future. Unless they see their future and the end is near?

Having the Government fund 60 type ratings even at $50,000 per? Sh*t, they'll have that back from Tim Hortons tax contribution in a single day.
What did it cost in EI when they shut down the East Coast fisheries back in the 90s and put 30,000 people out of work?
Let's get real.
Keep it in perspective.
Sunwing and Canjet need to step up and put Canadian pilots in those positions. NOT foreigners!!!
They've no excuse. And to this point in time, from what I can see, only their demonstrated shameless behaviour condoned by a spineless government keeps it on the rails.

...any questions?

Gino

[trey kule]

...any questions?

Not from me. No Sir..I am a team player....
Good job Mr. H.!
Go team!

[Beefitarian]

Actually since everyone with a job pays into EI for their entire career and only a percentage of people laid off collect it for a maximum of one year. It brings in much more revenue than it returns, always has.

You will continue to be "overtaxed" by the program regardless of wether or not they train people to enable them to get another or better job.

The government will find something to waste that extra money on instead of paying for type ratings for Canadian pilots.

Are the foreign pilots exempt from paying into EI? If so you will be taxed somewhere to make up for that "loss in revenue". How do you like them tax apples?

[trey kule]

At the risk of having a stake put through my heart or being tar and feathered, the idea of taxpayer funded ratings to specifically help one or two companies simply wont fly (so to speak).
What is being suggested is that the taxpayers of Canada subsidize the training of a few airlines..
If one can get past looking at their own ends for a moment they will see that the obvious consequences of this plan would be to have air canada, west jet, porter, and the others who fly similar type screaming about unfair business practices.....
Look at the start of this thread Nothing like tossing out derogatory comments to convince anyone in the govt to help the cause. Good job guys..And again take a minute to step out of your own little world and ask yourself this..If you could not, or did not want to have to try and defend yourself against the howling mob who posts derogatory things about the government because they wont help them, are you going to respond to anything when you know it is going to be posted here on a public forum and ripped apart ...
I think the movement, so to speak has pretty much done its best to alienate every govt depart, politician, and organization that could help them.
Where would the taxpayer subsidization stop.. With laid off TA pilots? What about a king air pilot who has been laid off but has never flown a jet? Should they not also be given training to get a rating?
It is really to bad that all these proposals dont have someone in the group to offer a bit more common sense solutions..And there is one...
The whole issue is that the training costs for a seasonal employee do not make it economically feasable when there is a much cheaper solution. Unfortunately this solution means hiring properly rated pilots from other countries..It is the root issue that should be being addressed, and it is just being skirted around.
Meet with the companies and the govt.Dont post every response here you dont like..There is a way to make it work, but it wont happen taking this route I dont think.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Are the foreign pilots exempt from paying into EI? If so you will be taxed somewhere to make up for that "loss in revenue". How do you like them tax apples?

On paper, they are supposed to pay into it.

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/workplaceski ... hlet.shtml

How can employers demonstrate they are compliant?

To be considered compliant, employers must demonstrate that the terms and conditions set out in previous LMO confirmation letters and annexes were met. Employers may be asked to provide additional documentation during an Employer Compliance Review (ECR) process, which involves an STS assessment under the new rules.

Failure to provide requested documents may result in a negative LMO.

To demonstrate compliance, employers may be asked to provide:

Payroll records –

To ensure the appropriate prevailing wage and overtime are being paid;
To make sure deductions are being made (Canada Pension Plan, Employment Insurance, Income Tax); and

In practice, the Canjet and Sunwing foreign pilots do not contribute one red cent to EI. But no one in Government seems to care.

[conehead]

I know of AME's that recieved aircraft endorsement courses after being laid-off, funded by E.I. This training would cost approximately $10,000 each.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I know of AME's that recieved aircraft endorsement courses after being laid-off, funded by E.I. This training would cost approximately $10,000 each.

I know of an Air Canada pilot for whom HRSDC paid for a B-757 type rating so he could secure a new job when Air Canada laid him off in the early nineties.

Airlines will generally prefer type-rated pilots over non-type rated, but favoring FOREIGN type-rated over CANADIAN non-rated is a new and hopefully temporary phenomenon.

[Gorgons]

In practice, the Canjet and Sunwing foreign pilots do not contribute one red cent to EI. But no one in Government seems to care.

But they can't collect EI either, I expect the company still has to contribute their portion to the fund.

[JTF01]

The USA funds type ratings for pilots on an individual basis, done at the state level, through the Workforce Improvement Act (WIA). I know many guys who have gotten laid off, used the money to go to B-737 school, and eventually landed an interview with Southwest (several ended up with jobs). Which in turn benefits Joe Taxpayer, as these guys end up as productive members of society, paying considerable amount$ in taxes, instead of being on the dole.

As a taxpayer, it is a better longer-term investment to get these guys their type rating and have them working again, versus having them drain the public pursue, not contributing to provincial and federal revenues, plus seeing money that should be collected in taxes shifted off to Europe.

JTF01

[bopain]

Hypothetical question... What if the people that do the hiring at SWG just didn't like any of the laid off candidates that applied? Didn’t feel their personalities were a good fit for the company or some other soft skill wasn’t quite what they wanted?

In this day and age of globalization I have a hard time accepting this idea of entitlement based on passport or that it should trump a private company’s right to operate its company and short term hiring practices as it see's fit.

Gorgons, if they have trouble finding the "right fit", it may have something to do with what they pay...pilots that "fit" everywhere and that have the "skills" to succeed in training will choose where they want to work. If, for example, Air Sauerkraut pilots became the best paid pilots in Canada, they would have the choice of the pilot and I GUARANTEE they wouldn't have any problems finding the "right fit". So keep paying shitty, and you'll get what's left on the market....

[OPEC6-Heavy]

bopain,

So keep paying shitty, and you'll get what's left on the market....

I can assure you the pay is not shitty, so your theory is not applicable to this situation. But I'm sure it applies to a lot of other carriers.

[bopain]

Hypothetical question... What if the people that do the hiring at SWG just didn't like any of the laid off candidates that applied? Didn’t feel their personalities were a good fit for the company or some other soft skill wasn’t quite what they wanted?

In this day and age of globalization I have a hard time accepting this idea of entitlement based on passport or that it should trump a private company’s right to operate its company and short term hiring practices as it see's fit.

If, for example, Air Sauerkraut pilots became the best paid pilots in Canada,

That is an example, like I said. I wasn't actually talking about any specific airline! Unless you actually work for Air Sauerkraut?!?!

[Beefitarian]

That is an example, like I said. I wasn't actually talking about any specific airline! Unless you actually work for Air Sauerkraut?!?!

Do they hire low timers?

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Unless you actually work for Air Sauerkraut?!?!

Maybe one day, fingers crossed. Always been a dream of mine.