Did some "advanced" training a while ago. I
don't want to mention any names. He was
from a large city, and I guess he had been reading
here (and other place) about so-called "advanced"
maneuvers you can perform in a light airplane:

1) roll around at point at the bottom of the power
curve (misnamed "dutch roll")

2) falling leaf (stay in the stall)

3) landing on one main wheel (esp in a x/w)

Apparently all the young instructors at the big city
thought these maneuvers were dangerous "cowboy"
stunts which they would never do. It would invalidate
their insurance.

What incredible Male Bovine Excrement.

Let's look at #1, which is just gentle turns, almost
in slow flight. Since when did gentle turns, faster than
slow flight, become "dangerous"?! How does it
invalidate your insurance?! It is a valuable lesson
about adverse yaw and the use of rudder.

#2 is simply stalling the aircraft, but instead of running
away at the first hint of the stall, exploring it a bit. It
does not involve any high G or unusual attitudes, and
again teaches a wonderful lesson about not picking up
a downgoing wing with aileron, and instead using rudder.

#3 is merely what one does in a tailwheel aircraft, doing
a wheel landing in a crosswind. Can some young instructor
here explain to me how landing a tailwheel aircraft in a
crosswind violates your insurance?!

I would dearly love for some of those young instructors
to respond here, and tell me what I am doing wrong.

roll around at point at the bottom of the power
curve (misnamed "dutch roll")

What's the significance of doing this at the bottom of the power curve?

photofly wrote:

roll around at point at the bottom of the power
curve (misnamed "dutch roll")

What's the significance of doing this at the bottom of the power curve?

I'll take a stab and say adverse yaw is more noticeable which helps prove the point more which helps you build your rudder coordination skills.

Hmmm. Most components of adverse yaw get worse as the airspeed decreases well below min drag speed. And I can think of at least one contribution to adverse/proverse yaw that's exactly zero at minimum drag speed.

I know CS didn't want this to turn into a discussion about aerodynamics though

Colonel Sanders wrote:Apparently all the young instructors at the big city thought these maneuvers were dangerous "cowboy" stunts which they would never do. It would invalidate their insurance.

Wasn't there another thread recently where the 100 hour solo was discussed? Maybe these two are related...

http://www.flightwriter.com/2011/01/top ... lders.html.

Cheers,
Steve
http://www.flightwriter.com
http://www.skywriters.aero

photofly wrote:
I know CS didn't want this to turn into a discussion about aerodynamics though

You're right he doesn't. He wants you to do to exercise your hands and feet. Get out and do rather than sit and ponder.

I agree with CS, I also believe that it plays a large part on the FTU and what they deem as an "acceptable" risk. In this case I find that most students never may get to see things you've mentioned and much more.

oxi

Colonel Sanders wrote: #3 is merely what one does in a tailwheel aircraft, doing
a wheel landing in a crosswind. Can some young instructor
here explain to me how landing a tailwheel aircraft in a
crosswind violates your insurance?!

I would dearly love for some of those young instructors
to respond here, and tell me what I am doing

Come now, everyone knows your insurance is fine provided you have received your tail wheel rating

You are probably doing everything fine, some of us will work hard on changing the way pilots are trained in the future.
For now this is just more business for you, for now....

I hope cr doesn't get a prize. I was going to say, "Their insurance is likely void after they ground loop having lied to get it, with no training on conventional gear planes." this morning.

I did all these maneuvers as a PPL student at a "big city" FTU, so I don't think your argument encapsulates all flying schools.

Then again, I was allowed to land in a 10G15kt crosswind component as a solo PPL student as well, so maybe my school is just crazy compared to Seneca.

I would dearly love for some of those young instructors
to respond here, and tell me what I am doing wrong.

Still waiting. If you're an instructor in your 20's with plucked
eyebrows and mousse in your hair, reading this in Starbucks
and you think that maneuvers #1, #2 or #3 above are either
dangerous or illegal or unsafe or invalidate your insurance, I
really want to hear from you.

provided you have received your tail wheel rating

I chromed my center line once. Unfortunately it broke shortly
afterwards due to hydrogen embrittlement.

Sounds like said instructor has head too far up ass. He's beyond help.


Most of the flight schools I've dealt with are primarily focused on training to pass a flight test, and leave out most of the "fun" stuff and coordination exercises, as they are not directly a flight test item.

Oh for the love of God.......let's all just chip in and buy Hedley and hour with a high class hooker. He only goes out looking for fights like this when his old lady holds out on him for too long........

looproll wrote: Most of the flight schools I've dealt with are primarily focused on training to pass a flight test, and leave out most of the "fun" stuff and coordination exercises, as they are not directly a flight test item.

Yes, it has about as much to do with flight tests as going up and down scales has to do with playing Debussy or Chopin. People are in too much of a hurry for results that many of the finer points of flying get glossed over... paradoxically resulting in poorer performance and more hours required.

I love rolling around a point. I do it myself every so often just to exercise those footrests under my feet.

thank you for the tip. I regularly practice Dutch rolls for warm up, but I did it below the Va but not necessarily closer to the slow flight. I just did not know.

Colonel Sanders wrote:

I would dearly love for some of those young instructors
to respond here, and tell me what I am doing wrong.

Still waiting. If you're an instructor in your 20's with plucked
eyebrows and mousse in your hair, reading this in Starbucks
and you think that maneuvers #1, #2 or #3 above are either
dangerous or illegal or unsafe or invalidate your insurance, I
really want to hear from you.

provided you have received your tail wheel rating

I chromed my center line once. Unfortunately it broke shortly
afterwards due to hydrogen embrittlement.

I am an instructor in my 20's, i actually prefer tim horton's, but neither of the above are dangerous in my eyes, i do them all with students

How do you people do to drink that timbo's muck water...Starbucks has far superior coffee but it is so overpriced. Tim's takes it for pastries, mmmm honey crawlers...
As for #1 and #2, never done it before doing the instructor rating.Now I do it with students. And isnt #3 the norm.

Why is it that Canada does not require figure eights around pylons during training?

That and flying under a bridge should be flight test items.

That and flying under a bridge should be flight test items.

Figure eights around pylons are flight test items in the USA, on both the flight tests I took for two different FAA licenses figure eights around pylons were required.

Flying under bridges however is not part of the training nor the flight test.

Figure eights around pylons are excellent co ordination exercises.

. . wrote:

Figure eights around pylons are excellent co ordination exercises.

I love these! Especially when done properly, at zero G

Seriously though, it would be great if the wingovers or figure 8s were taught during the PPL. A lot more fun than say a diversion exercise.
Realistically, I remember that a 360 45-degree turn done within the test limits was a reasonable challenge, requiring work. It is past PPL folks get to the wingover territory comfort level.

The turns around pylons exercise during training in the USA are to teach corrections for wind drift by maintaining the proper figure eight track over the ground.

They are not unusual attitude exercises.

We need to do that here for flight tests. Nothing pisses me off more when students wonder why they get blown so close to the runway after i told them on the last ~5 circuits to correct for drift.

Ok pylones as in markers on the ground. I was imagining actually flying around pylone.. Hence the bridge thing.