Full flap/specialty landings - 172

[Cessna driver]

I'm just curious how the other instructors out there teach full flap landings. I have a student that consistently lands flat with full flaps after he has been shown numerous times to keep the nose a bit higher. He's looking at the end of the runway and has a nice stable approach. Everything is great up until the flare and touch down.

Any suggestions?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

as been shown numerous times to keep the nose a bit higher. He's looking at the end of the runway and has a nice stable approach. Everything is great up until the flare and touch down.

Any suggestions?

Judging hold off height is difficult looking at the end of the runway, have him look around two runway lights ahead......between 4 and 5 hundred feet ahead, if the problem is he can't see over the nose have him move his head a bit to the left and look alongside of the cowling.

[Cessna driver]

He has no problem seeing over the cowling. He's taller than me. I'm just running out of ideas and he is getting frustrated. We have spent about 5 flights just working on the full flap landings, let alone the soft or short technique.

[Colonel Sanders]

Make sure you aren't putting the full flap on at the last
second. Do it earlier, and ensure that he is trimmed.

Also emphasize that a greater pitch change is required
during the flare, to achieve the normal landing attitude.

It depresses me, how much valuable time people waste
on these weird landings. After the student gets his PPL,
all this simulated training in NO WAY prepares the student
to actually land on a grass or rough or short surface.

Meanwhile, the student can't hold centerline and can't
maintain an airspeed. Sigh.

[Trematode]

You've recognized the problem: He's not setting the correct attitude.

You've got to figure out why and how to fix it -- I'd start by reviewing what the proper attitude looks like and making sure he understands what he should be seeing through the windshield before he touches down. He might recognize that he's not seeing the proper attitude, but he's hesitant to correct it. He'll probably need to apply more back pressure than he's used to without the flaps. If he's not trimming properly that will only make it worse. Make sure he understands that the feel is important but that it shouldn't prevent him from setting the proper attitude at touchdown. He has to set the attitude he wants regardless of the control pressures.

He needs a clearly defined picture of the touchdown attitude in his mind and he has to manipulate the controls sufficiently until he sees it. He will have to evaluate, re-evaluate, adjust and re-adjust the picture accordingly throughout the flare.

On the ground having a visual aid to demonstrate attitudes is helpful. If you don't already: Two pieces of paper. The first, a picture of the ground and sky with a clearly defined horizon. The second, the outline of the view from the pilots seat of with the cowling, instrument panel, and windshield frame -- cut a hole in the shape of the windshield so when you overlay it on top of the horizon you can demonstrate attitudes. Keep in mind the attitudes may look a bit different to him in practice if he sits higher up like you say.

Edit: I forgot to add that he can't just set the attitude immediately or he'll balloon -- he also has to understand that he has to maintain his height over the runway throughout the flare until he is able to set the attitude -- what . said about the point of zero apparent motion is important for this. He can also watch the runway edges in his peripheral vision and make sure they are neither rising nor falling away.

Some power off stall with flaps practice might help him smoothly adjust his attitude while maintaining altitude and decelerating. Not that you're going to stall over the runway, but he can get a feel for the attitude change and you can point out when he has reached the landing attitude, and get him to hold it there instead of pitching up further like he might normally do when practicing stalls.

[Colonel Sanders]

On the ground having a visual aid to demonstrate attitudes is helpful

Yeah - take a dry erase marker and have him draw
a line of the horizon inside the windscreen in the landing
attitude. I use that for tailwheel training. Never heard
of anyone that needed it for nosewheel, but I guess
there's always a first!

[Cessna driver]

Thanks for the input guys, I've shown him countless times he needs more back pressure and the get that nose up. Out of 10 landings, one of them might actually be good, the rest are on the nose or totally flat.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

If he has no idea of what the attitude looks like at touch down just put him in the seat tied down on the ramp and sit on the horizontal stab and put the airplane into the touch down attitude.

How often do you demonstrate what it looks like with him hands off during the landing?

[Colonel Sanders]

he needs more back pressure

I say again: Nose up trim on final.

After last flap extension, have him take his hands
off the control yoke. If the aircraft dives, there's
your answer.

If you spend time checking people out on 182/206
then this becomes obvious and mandatory.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I've shown him countless times he needs more back pressure and the get that nose up.

Back pressure is a function of trim setting and aircraft type......

The " O N L Y " issue is correct attitude at touch down......how much pressure it takes to achieve it is not the issue.

[Colonel Sanders]

how much pressure it takes to achieve it is not the issue

Yes, for a high-time "closed loop" pilot.

However, for a low-time "open loop" pilot
who flies by rote, this is not obvious.

Low-time open loop pilots do not react well
to when things change (e.g. aircraft type).
Heck, they don't even deal every well with
some wind in the circuit.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Make it obvious.

That is what teaching is all about.

Lets try this analogy:

A low time car driver has two cars one with power steering one without.

The driver takes the no power steering car for a ride and comes to a turn in the road and uses the same force that he/she is used to in the car with power steering and nothing happens....until he / she increases the force on the steering wheel to make the car turn.

Should be the same thing with control force using the elevator during a landing....pull until you get the attitude you need.

[Trematode]

Thanks for the input guys, I've shown him countless times he needs more back pressure and the get that nose up. Out of 10 landings, one of them might actually be good, the rest are on the nose or totally flat.

I would be careful about emphasizing back pressure. Emphasize the attitude instead. You've got to be triple sure he knows the attitude he needs to look for, and that if he doesn't see it, he will manipulate the controls until he does.

Instead of practicing landings for the 6th time, go out and review attitudes -- at altitude get him to demonstrate the landing attitude you want to see from him with the power off and with. The flaps full. Trimmed for approach speed.

[Beefitarian]

Have you tried the, "power off. Keep easing the yoke back. Little more, little more.. Don't let it land." routine?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

If the student has the wrong nose attitude for the touch down I calmly say.

Raise the nose.

[Cessna driver]

Have you tried the, "power off. Keep easing the yoke back. Little more, little more.. Don't let it land." routine?

Essentially yes. Usually its "ok, you have made your runway, power to idle and raise the nose so the top of the cowl is on the end of the runway"


Normal landings are no problem. Ive gone over numerous times with him what the flaps are doing and what he needs to do fix it. He can tell me exactly what to do on the ground. In the airplane, it's like he sees it flat and doesn't try to fix it. Its porpoised on us twice and i caught it after the first. Show him what happens with the video of the warrior in another thread?

[Beefitarian]

Show him what happens with the video of the warrior in another thread?

Maybe, I was tempted to mention that.

Don't want the guy being scared to land though. Could go the other way and introduce ballooning.

Edit: What about starting with no flap. Then adding 10 degrees land a few times. Add 10 degrees...?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Cessna

What speed are approaching at ? Don't forget that the POH recommended approach
speeds are for gross weight. On a typical training flight the C 172 will be 300 or 400 pounds under gross. Personally I find that a 55 knot approach speed with 2 up and half tanks works well for a full flap
approach. Excess speed in the flare will require an initial nose down attitude in the flare until the speed decays. This invites a nose wheel first touch down.

A lower speed allows you to close the throttle and smoothly raise the nose to the landing attitude without the aircraft ballooning. Having the aircraft in trim on short final is also obviously
desirable.

Knocking 5 knots off the approach speed for mid weight or lighter approaches works surprisingly well for all of the common light aircraft.

[photofly]

Personally I find that a 55 knot approach speed with 2 up and half tanks works well for a full flap
approach.

I know you all laugh at me for actually working out 1.3VS0 for different configurations, but full flaps, 2 up and 25 gallons of fuel in a typical 172M has a 1.3VS0 speed of 51 KIAS.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I am trying to figure out what the problem is here, trying to give advice on something as basic as how to teach a student to land is difficult when I have no idea of who I am giving advice to.

I take it you are a licensed flight instructor Cessna Pilot?

Did someone else start this students training or has he been yours from hour zero?

And forgive my ignorance with today s flight training phraseology, but what exactly is " Full flap / Specialty landings- 172 "?

[Cessna driver]

I am trying to figure out what the problem is here, trying to give advice on something as basic as how to teach a student to land is difficult when I have no idea of who I am giving advice to.

I take it you are a licensed flight instructor Cessna Pilot?

Did someone else start this students training or has he been yours from hour zero?

And forgive my ignorance with today s flight training phraseology, but what exactly is " Full flap / Specialty landings- 172 "?

Yes he's been mine since the start. I haven't had a problem teaching other guys. Specialty meaning soft and shorts etc..

I teach them all the same... Base bring out 10 degrees, 70 knots with 3 full slides of nose up trim final, 20 degrees and 65, then once they get that stabilized 30 degrees and 60, (policy is 60).

[Colonel Sanders]

Look on the bright side - you don't have 40 degrees of flaps!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I teach them all the same... Base bring out 10 degrees, 70 knots with 3 full slides of nose up trim

I always teach trim use by trimming to zero forces on the elevator at whatever attitude, speed, power setting that you desire at that point in the flight.

Counting trim slides sets up a sloppy habit for trimming in my opinion.

final, 20 degrees and 65, then once they get that stabilized 30 degrees and 60, (policy is 60).

Who's policy is that?

What does the airplane POH say?

[Rookie50]

I think the final approach speed is so important for minimal energy in the flare. My landings are better, personally at a lower speed. (like a touch under 60 in a 172 rg).

I have a question - I am getting a 182 rg with 4p degree flap capability. I would like to train on it, to master short and soft. Any thoughts about the benefit of the last 10 degrees? Too easy to bang the nose wheel with a fwd C of G?

Best short approach technique and speed -- from my POH look, 65 in calm conditons, power approach should work well...70 or so in gusty conditions, less flap.

Will be based czba. I may be interested in someone experienced on type for some transition, can PM me for this.

[trey kule]

First of all, I have to agree with CS.....to much time wasted on this type of thing.
This is not a single lesson teaching objective.. It can be taught and practiced once at the return of each flight..Give your student a break an let them make some good landings and then return to this.They might just be going through a bit of a learning plateau or whatever they call it nowadays.

And as Cat metioned..It is all about the attitude of the plane..Not the control imputs..If I had a nickel for every time I have to tell a new CPL this little bit of wisdom I would have a whole bag of nickels with a dollar sign printed on the side. You put in the inputs necessary to make the plane do what you want.
You do not routinely say {"pull back, or push forward or hold it like that")..You raise or lower the nose.or hold it where it is. .big difference, Cat mentioned it) As CS mentioned, a bit of back trim works real well in some of these situations.. Where do you guys come up with this.."three turns this way or that"...This is a a 172 we are talking about where the percentage of weight and position of the c of g can very dramatically.
As to the specifics of your question. As others have mentioned; the internet is not the place. It may be the students problem.. It may be your interpretation . As an aside, a few years ago I was teaching transitioning training on a rather nose heavy tail wheel plane with terrible forward vis in the landing attitude..Pilots would make a beautiful stabalized approach, and then about 20 feet above the runway as they began the flare could not see the runway, and chopped the power, nose went down quickly, then up ,....a real rodeo ride and so common that we briefed it in advance and demonstrated it before letting them try it...and they still took them a few tries...Which brings me to the question of power.
If you are making a low speed, high drag approach with power, you want to reduce the power slowly well in advance or alternately leave it alone (yeah , yeah, I know about ballooning, but if you are well into the back side of the power curve this is not usually a big problem) until the attitude is perfect and gently let the plane down by holding attitude and reducing power until you feel the wheels kiss the pavement. Dont put to much empahasis on spot landing initially. Get the attitude right , the flare nice, and no big changes in power right in the last few seconds. If you are doing very slow power off approaches they usually require some major pitch up (long time since I flew a 172) and without any power the elevator is not that authoritative, so it is sometimes easier to approach initially with power to make the pitch up in the flare a bit less dramatic..Again, it is all about the attitude of the plane.
Take it in small steps with your student if they are having trouble.. Make it easy as possible at first and then change it up as they get more comfortable. Dont be like the instructors that think the best way to initially teach a student to land is with a direct 15G20 Xwind..They will get it eventually, but in the long run it takes them more time as they are trying to learn two things..How to land, and how to land in a x-wind..Same thing applies here..One step at a time.