AME's who are thieves Part Duh

[Colonel Sanders]

Ok. Different airport this time.

Old guy I knew (dead now), had some money. His
floats were up at this different airport - they were
removed by the AME there. Old guy goes to get
his floats, the data plates are missing. AME claims
to know nothing about it

Doctor I know, with a taildragger. Let's the Pride
of Air Canada try to land it. Groundloops it, of
course, and bends the gear. Pride of Air Canada
is not seen around the airport any more. Doctor
flies the taildragger with the bent gear up to AME
who makes data plates disappear. That was around
oh, ten years ago. Airplane is still in pieces. Probably
will never fly again. God knows how much money
was spent on the repairs.

That AME sure knows how to milk the rich guys,
and I guess that's a recurring theme in aviation,
that no one really gets upset about. Some sort
of class anger thing going on - justifiable freelance
socialism.


Now onto AME's Who Are Thieves Part Twois

A friend of mine, at a THIRD airport near me,
needs an engine overhaul. Third AME praises
a particular engine shop to the stars. My friend,
who has a little (but not a lot) of money, makes
the mistake of trusting his AME, and sends his
engine to the shop.

Turns out the shop kicks back thousands of dollars
to this third AME. Let me guess. Instead of calling
it a kickback or bribe, you're going to call it a
"referral commission"?


tl;dr It's a wonder that there is any aviation left
in Canada, when you see the kind of predatory
people taking advantage of the trusting owners.

Maybe eastern Ontario is an unusual Den Of Thieves,
but from the PM's and emails I've been getting from
people all across Canada on this subject, I don't
think so.

[SeptRepair]

Sounds to me you know a lot of stupid aircraft owners who don't know how to manage their affairs properly. But then again that is the common theme after all. Pilots and their lack of knowledge when it comes to maintaining an aircraft, then blaming the big bad AME when they dont understand.

[Colonel Sanders]

Pilots and their lack of knowledge

which unscrupulous AME's take advantage of. This
smells an awful lot like people blaming the victim.

You know, she shouldn't have worn those clothes,
or visited India.

[ruddersup?]

SR
+1

[Colonel Sanders]

class anger - justifiable freelance socialism

Fly your colours, boys! Looks like the Jolly Roger to me, though.

[ruddersup?]

With all due respect CS there is no place in the world for what you are describing, but you are painting a struggling occupation with the same brush - not fair. Everyone agrees that there is no place for treating clients as you have indicated. No matter what business that fellow would be in he would be screwing his clients.
However, as AME's we are singled out for things that aren't our fault. Advice given and not used by pilots.

We put 6 o/h cylinders on a high performance single. It was suggested for us to break the cylinders in - nope.
We explained how to break them in and off he goes. Two months later with 6 hours on the cylinders he complains about bad mag drop. We ask how has he been breaking them in? Full rich on the ground and I just fly it normally, I've been flying for 35 years.
Hoping he hasn't glazed all the cylinders we check compressions and I fly it for a couple of hours and check oil burn and plug fowling on ground. I think we are okay to go if he will listen !!!!
Few weeks later he calls and says the mags are terrible and it has no power !!!!!!! But he continues to fly it with family. He still didn't follow our break-in procedure.
I tell him to bring it in immediately only if it runs okay otherwise leave it where it is.
He arrives and says, whew, it hardly made it out of the strip.
He then threatens me with litigation because in 35 years he has never had an engine run like this !!!!!!!!



CS - AME's are not the only ***holes.

[tiggermoth]

Colonel, I hear you. In fact, when I first got into this AME game, I worked for such a guy. I saw him charge some people for some things that made me, as a green apprentice, shake my head. He had a pretty good racket going for a while too, he was the only AMO in town so the small commercial charter/outfitter guys had nowhere else to go with their 185's and Super Cubs.

At the same time, I have seen the opposite as well. Guys who take the extra time to explain what they are doing, and why, to the owner. The kind of guy who does go that extra mile to ensure his customer leaves happy. A number of times, I have seen the guy in the shop next door to where I am at now, spend some time helping a guy out and not even charge him for the hour or two that it takes.

You know, the funny thing is, in my experience, the second group of guys makes more money in the long run. Sure, AME 1 is laughing that one week when he made $30,000 off one customer. But guess what happens next year when the owner goes to the second guy and gets treated better. He goes back to AME 2 for repeat visits. Now AME 2 has a regular customer that he makes money on while AME 1 sits in an empty hangar wondering why nobody is calling anymore.

I watched this happen. With that first AME I worked for, I have kept in touch a bit over the years, and I watched customer after customer leave and go down the street for better service when a new AMO set up shop. I have listened to him rant about how ignorant so-and-so is going somewhere else now because of this, that, or the other thing. Luckily for him, he was able to just sell his hangar and has since retired.

I would say, that as a whole, there are more of the second type of AME's than the first 'thief' type. But how many of them are working for charter companies, airlines, or even on the shop floor underneath the 'thief' shop owner. In fact, I would hope that even the majority of shop owners would be more 'fair' with the billing, perhaps you have been unlucky there. Everyone is trying to make a living doing what they do, it just some seem to think that dishonesty will make them more, and it will for a short time until customers start to catch on. Unfortunately, you will run into these clowns everywhere, in every industry. Sounds like your friends out there in Ontario have had more than your fair share.

Tell you what, bring your airplanes out here to me in northern BC, I will look after them for you I have a couple regular customers now, but I could fit you in

EDIT-Ruddersup just posted at the same time, and I totally agree with him there too. Seen that exact same thing happen here. The owner was used to turbine engine helicopters, and bought himself an R-44. It had a bunch of time on it, and ended up needing a set of jugs. When we were finished, he was going to go out and baby it for a few hours to "break'em in gently". We would not let him fly, as we knew he was going to cause major issues, and didn't want to run into the same crap that Ruddersup describes. After finally showing him documents from Lycoming he agreed to do it our way, and I ended up flying around with him for 2 days as 'ballast' so we could break the jugs in properly

[Colonel Sanders]

I agree 100% - plenty of pilots and owners are idiots
that don't know much about airplanes. Sure, we can
all laugh at them over a beer, and deride them because
they don't know as much as we do.

But that doesn't justify ripping off an honest owner,
who's only real big mistake is trusting his AME.

That's the leap of logic I am not following. I view it
as my job to educate people around me. Not prey
on them.

Note that there are plenty of predatory instructors,
who abuse the trust of their customers just like the
AME's I have described. They really p1ss me off.

It's hard to put it into words - it always sounds stupid
when you try - but aviation is based on trust. As a
professional, sure, you have knowledge and skills and
qualifications, but that's all worthless if you can't be
trusted.

[brownbear]

It's not an AME thing its a human thing.

If your an ignorant owner about things mechanical and you take your plane, car or even plumbing to someone they might take advantage of you.

My advice is to not be trusting to strangers. If you have a larger job to get done, shop around and get a feel for someones personality. Ask for references from other owners. It's your money.

There will always be victims if people don't take some precautions before doing business with someone.

I'd start slow with a new shop. Give them just a little work and if you feel stung like you've been taken advantage of, you very might have been. Hopefully then you are not in too far.

[CID]

What exactly is the purposes of continuing this rant about thieving AMEs? You seem to suggest that there are no thieves in other parts of the industry.

I knew a pilot/owner that needed to replace an ADF antenna on his airplane. He bought one from some US supplier and after he it was replaced, he directed the AME to package up the old one and return it to the supplier as "failed on installation". The AME refused.

I know another pilot/owner that scolded his AME who tried to modify his Lake Buccaneer in accordance with an optional service bulletin that would prevent blockage of the oil breather in cold weather. When the pilot narrowly escaped death after rolling his airplane in a ball due too an untimely engine failure in cold weather (Yep...the breather froze up) he tried to sue the AME.

So don't bother with your little stories about big bad AMEs without acknowledging that there are just as many crooked owners/operators/pilots/dispatchers/flight attendants etc in the industry.

[Colonel Sanders]

So don't bother with your little stories

I will try to make them much bigger next time. Actually,
if you will shoot me a certified cheque made out to cash
for $30k, I'll forget the damage he did to the aircraft and
we can call it even.

[CID]

Hey, I didn't mind the first anecdote. Some good points made and no spelling errors. Of course that's because you right all your posts in a word processor...

But I digress. Making a "part two" implies you're trying to make this a "thing" and that's too bad.

[revr]

[quote="Colonel Sanders"]Ok. Different airport this time.


Now onto AME's Who Are Thieves Part Twois

A friend of mine, at a THIRD airport near me,
needs an engine overhaul. Third AME praises
a particular engine shop to the stars. My friend,
who has a little (but not a lot) of money, makes
the mistake of trusting his AME, and sends his
engine to the shop.

Turns out the shop kicks back thousands of dollars
to this third AME. Let me guess. Instead of calling
it a kickback or bribe, you're going to call it a
"referral commission"?


So did this shop do good work?
was this shop more expensive than the next shop?
if it was the same price as the next engine shop and the work was just as good than what does it matter?
that ame had a contact and used it. maybe the pilot/owner should just pick a overhaul shop out of a hat?
what overhaul shop was this? i would like to send an engine or 2 there.
and how did you find out that the ame was getting a kick back?
probably just a made up pilot rumour, pilots are great for figuring out stuff like that.
if you dont like ame's than go OWNER MAINTENANCE then thier should be no issues.

[Colonel Sanders]

So, you think kickbacks are ok?

You can go to jail for that sh1t. Ask the Montreal
politicians and construction companies.

[conehead]

I don't see anything wrong with recieving a "referral fee" in exchange for sending a little business his way...

[Colonel Sanders]

You the mayor of Montreal?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le5833313/

Earlier this fall, Montreal’s mayor, Gérald Tremblay, stepped down after the Charbonneau inquiry heard allegations of that his party received kickbacks from construction firms.

Laval Mayor Gilles Vaillancourt then quit after the anti-corruption police squad executed search warrants at his home, offices and bank safety boxes.

You're cool with that?

[DonutHole]

Is there a distinction to be made between private enterprise and a public service?

Companies do this all the time with a practice which is essentially the same, they buy a product and they mark it up and make a profit... I see no ethical reason why the same couldn't be done with a service if that service is sourced and provided by outfit a but carried out by outfit b, could easily be looked at as a handling fee. If I am going to put time into sourcing a shop for an owner and setting up a deal, I should be fairly compensated for the time invested in doing so. I do not work for free and should not be expected to.

That being said, there has to be some sort of reasonable limit and thousands of dollars simply for middle manning an engine reman does seem a bit over the top.

[black hole]

I have been an AME for about 40 years. Believe me!!! The few stories I have read here are tivial to what I've seen.


BH

[Colonel Sanders]

After a couple of days of thinking about this,
I wanted to point something out:

I wrench more than I fly. My fingernails are
dark, my fingers are stained, and my hands
are cut up. I fly weird old airplanes that aren't
about to tolerate a pilot who doesn't have a
clue. As a little kid I started working on bicycles
then motorcycles, then tractors, repairing farm
equipment, cars, trucks, boats, airplanes. I am
a packrat. I have a massive collection of tools
and parts and manuals. I really love machines.

When I run across a scummy AME, he makes
me angrier than I should get. It's not that he's
stealing. Or breaking regulations.

What bothers me is when a scumbag takes a
good airplane and makes a piece of sh1t out of it.
That makes me really, really angry. People get
hurt that way.

An awful lot of my friends have died in airplanes,
and I try very hard not to do the same, but sooner
or later your number is going to come up. It's a
statistical certainty that I will die in an airplane, and
it would be unbelievably arrogant of me to think
otherwise. But it makes me very, very angry when
some scumbag tries to hurry me along and push me
into my grave, so that he can line his pockets.

I suppose people here would not like me to get
upset when slimy AME's try to kill me, but oh well.

[cgzro]

I don't see anything wrong with recieving a "referral fee" in exchange for sending a little business his way..

Seriously not cool dude.. Seriously...

Its a sleazy business practice, rewards the overhaul shops that pay the biggest kick backs instead of the best. Its also illegal which is why its hidden. In my own company and previous companies we get yearly education on such matters and in China the penalty for taking a kickback is rather severe. In fact i'm told that a recent very serious train accident involving dozens of fatalities was in large part due to the bypassing of a proper selection process because of a kickback.

Seriously uncool...

[DonutHole]

There is a huge difference between the train accident, and politicians taking kickbacks from contractors than private enterprise working together to provide a service.

[Colonel Sanders]

No, there isn't. Not sure if you remember Marsh
Insurance or not - COPA used to use them - but
they got caught taking kickbacks, and there was
talk of jail time, and huge fines.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/feb/01/8

Marsh & McLennan, the world's biggest insurance broker, yesterday agreed to pay $850m (£450m) to settle allegations that it rigged the market and took kickbacks from insurance firms for directing business their way.

The cash will be used to reimburse the broker's clients who were forced to pay inflated prices because of the alleged fraud. Marsh issued an apology for "unlawful" and "shameful" behaviour.

In the past three months, six executives from three insurance firms - AIG, Ace and Zurich Financial Services - have pleaded guilty to criminal charges relating to the original suit filed against Marsh in October.

The suit alleged that Marsh had steered its clients towards insurance firms with which it had lucrative pay-off agreements, instead of seeking the best policy and price for clients. It also claimed Marsh had solicited fake bids from insurers to drive up prices.

Your lack of ethics and morals is scary, sir.

[crazy_aviator]

In the past, i have been woefully kind to my customers in not marking up parts enough and giving services away too often. You can put a 40% mark-up on a bulb or other small item BECAUSE of your services in providing said product,,,but 40% on 4 cylinders when the customer CAN go direct ? not any more,, OR 10% on an engine referral ESPECIALLY when your imput is negligible is NOT good business practice in my opinion. As a whole, there is a SHITLOAD of unbilled or unbillable time when operating a small AMO and you MUST look at all your "work" as producing at least some income otherwise you aught to go open a charity!

[conehead]

A buddy of mine has a AMO, and I know he does very good work. If I recommend this AMO to an aircraft owner, and my buddy gives me a small gift in appreciation, this makes me sleazy and lacking in moral fibre? I'm scratching my head on this one...

[Colonel Sanders]

I think you're arguing that a woman that gets
paid $10 to have sex isn't a prostitute, but a
woman that gets paid $100 to have sex is a
prostitute?