Is Jazz prohibited from cancelling IFR?

[Gramps]

Inbound to YXS, Rwy 33, Jazz RJ coming from Vancouver. ATC requests he "keep his speed up, you're number one to an aircraft inbound from the East". The weather "vis greater than 15 miles 4,600 overcast, no precip or lower cloud". Jazz hangs on to the IFR all the way in. If you have ever been to YXS, the runway is very hard to mistake, especially when inbound from the South. So the aircraft that is inbound from the East, yours truly, is unable to get clearance below 8,000 ASL, due to the missed approach on Rwy 33 requiring a climb to 7,000. So the Jazz RJ lands, still with his IFR clearance in spite of A: the weather, and B: knowing that he is holding another aircraft up. I call ATC, they are as perplexed as I am. My question is this, I know that Jazz has a policy to not cancel IFR at night, this I understand and support fully. But does this policy carry over into the daylight hours, even with great vis, high ceiling, knowing you're holding someone else up?? Just wondering if this is Co policy, or a minor example of less-than-stellar airmanship. Maybe the crew can shed some light? Aircraft in question was a Jazz RJ, landed YXS today from YVR, at 2110 UTC.

No harm, no foul, just looking for some clarification.

Gramps

[indieadventurer]

A buddy of mine works there, said they're supposed to keep their IFR except when "all use of ATC has been exhausted" or some language to that effect. Gotta think missed approach...what if... etc. That'd be my best guess as to why they wouldn't have cx'd.

[complexintentions]

Since when is not cancelling IFR "less than stellar airmanship"?! FFS.

Your issue is with the ATC system that for whatever reason, is incapable of sequencing aircraft close enough that they can allow you to descend lower than you desired. That's not a hack on ATC, there could be terrain or technical reasons for it, but it certainly isn't another operator's obligation to switch from IFR to VFR simply to speed things up for someone else. No one is "hanging on" to their IFR, it's completely normal - and mandated - for most airlines to only allow IFR ops. Most have strict limitations on even visual approaches (which are still IFR procedures). It isn't an issue of weather conditions whatsoever.

What would you suggest Jazz do if for some reason they go around for a reason other than weather? (Unstable approach, windshear, vehicle on the runway, whatever.) They're basically now going to have to do a VFR circuit. In an RJ, maybe with a crew who's never been to YXS. Have they briefed it? Probably not. They fly IFR procedures all day long, but when was the last time they flew a circuit? So is that safer than following a programmed procedure with positive lateral guidance and assured terrain clearance? I think not. Sure, they can "do" it, but aside from violating company SOP's, it's just poor risk management. All so that another a/c can save what, two minutes?

Sorry you feel someone was "holding you up", but questioning someone's use of an IFR clearance is the real example of less-than-stellar airmanship.

[co-joe]

Can't tell you how many times CMA has done this to me. Clear and a million and those buggers hang on till they land.

[Independence]

Those day VFR circuits are certain death!

[Donald]

Since when is not cancelling IFR "less than stellar airmanship"?! FFS.

(Snip)

Sorry you feel someone was "holding you up", but questioning someone's use of an IFR clearance is the real example of less-than-stellar airmanship.

If that's how you feel, I hope you don't fly in the oil sands area.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

We can't cancel at night. During the day we can under visual conditions. As well, even if it is clear and a million, if it is both pilot's first time to that particular airport, an IFR approach must be conducted due to the unfamiliar terrain and airport layout. This happens more often than you think when a particular base is short staffed and out-of-base crews are deadheaded in. For example, I am being sent out west this month to do some western flying and I've never been in the rockies before and I don't know if my Capt has either (we are both YYZ based). I apologize in advance for not cancelling when you might think it's the obvious thing to do! Our next time 'round though we'll be allowed to cancel.

As well, many pilots have been flying at Jazz for 20-25 years in a mostly ILS to ILS operation with constant radar coverage and simply never need to cancel IFR. Coming from a 704 operator before Jazz it was "SOP" to cancel right when you got the field visual. If I think it'll help someone else out by cancelling, I'll always suggest it to my Capt.

[tbaylx]

Normally I agree with you Complex, (think we have a similar ME background), but here i gotta say I disagree.

Unless there is some operational reason, asking for the visual approach in good weather to allow another aircraft to avoid a costly delay is good airmanship. We aren't talking about IFR radar environments where it makes little difference, there are many parts of the country here where if pilots didn't extend the visual approach courtesy to others operations would look like DXB in a thunderstorm or fall fog.

The oilsands and the arctic come to mind where if you don't cancel you'll keep another aircraft at 12000 until you land 10 min later. If its IFR or terrain or night and you need to keep the IFR then that's a different story, but if its day VFR i would accept the visual approach every time to allow another aircraft approach clearance.

The oil sands would come to a grinding halt if the operators in there didn't do that on a regular basis. Nothing at all unprofessional about it.

[teacher]

Like it was mentioned before. We can't cancel at night or if it's our first time in that airport. Lots of folks from all over the country get pairings or reserve coverage from coast to coast. They might have never been there OR might have been a crew that flies mostly in controlled conditions and forgot to cancel since they NEVER do it normally. It happens.

[Tail-Chaser]

They cancel coming into Castlegar all the time when the weather's playing nice.

[loopa]

Since when is not cancelling IFR "less than stellar airmanship"?! FFS.

(Snip)

Sorry you feel someone was "holding you up", but questioning someone's use of an IFR clearance is the real example of less-than-stellar airmanship.

If that's how you feel, I hope you don't fly in the oil sands area.

He doesn't... he flies 400 people to destinations you and I can dream of - making more than our salaries tripled.

His response is the example of a heavy transport category pic's decision making.

Couldn't agree more with you complex for the type of environments you fly to.

Normally I agree with you Complex, (think we have a similar ME background), but here i gotta say I disagree.

Unless there is some operational reason, asking for the visual approach in good weather to allow another aircraft to avoid a costly delay is good airmanship. We aren't talking about IFR radar environments where it makes little difference, there are many parts of the country here where if pilots didn't extend the visual approach courtesy to others operations would look like DXB in a thunderstorm or fall fog.

The oilsands and the arctic come to mind where if you don't cancel you'll keep another aircraft at 12000 until you land 10 min later. If its IFR or terrain or night and you need to keep the IFR then that's a different story, but if its day VFR i would accept the visual approach every time to allow another aircraft approach clearance.

The oil sands would come to a grinding halt if the operators in there didn't do that on a regular basis. Nothing at all unprofessional about it.

The above however is the example of what we deal with in our airspace structure and is well said.

[Nark]

I've forgotten most of the TC regs, but isn't a visual approach and IFR approach?
It is here in the USofA.
Our ops don't allow us to cancel IFR until we are down. We fly into Canada all the time, so forgive us Yankees.

[CpnCrunch]

What's the reasoning behind ATC blocking off the entire airspace when there is an IFR approach, rather than slotting the planes in? In that case, what is the point of having ATC at all?

[sstaurus]

Isn't that radar vs non-radar?

[turbo-prop]

It makes me mad to when people don't cancel their IFR to help others, but if it was clear blue skies then you could have canceled your IFR under 12,500 and kept the alerting services or went company note.

[Lurch]

He doesn't... he flies 400 people to destinations you and I can dream of - making more than our salaries tripled.

His response is the example of a heavy transport category pic's decision making.

Ahh yes the exotic destinations of Fort McMurray, Fort St John and let's not forget about Saskatoon. I'm sorry but if you dream of flying to Jazz destinations you need to get better dreams.

Some of us actually make more then Jazz pilots and also question why they don't cancel their IFRs some days. I ran into this twice in the last 4 days.

When did Jazz start flying "heavy transport category" aircraft?

Lurch

[rigpiggy]

Don't forget the guy who calls for clearance before he even has the engines started. or should that be a separate post/rant

[Canoehead]

He doesn't... he flies 400 people to destinations you and I can dream of - making more than our salaries tripled.

His response is the example of a heavy transport category pic's decision making.

Ahh yes the exotic destinations of Fort McMurray, Fort St John and let's not forget about Saskatoon. I'm sorry but if you dream of flying to Jazz destinations you need to get better dreams.

Some of us actually make more then Jazz pilots and also question why they don't cancel their IFRs some days. I ran into this twice in the last 4 days.

When did Jazz start flying "heavy transport category" aircraft?

Lurch

Lurch- I'm reasonably sure 'Complexintentions' doesn't fly for Jazz.

It's been stated a few times already as to why the IFR may not have been cx'd. There has been a steady stream of new hires going on the line lately, and considering the number of destinations we operate into, the requirement to fly an IFR approach is often an issue.

[ehbuddy]

Happens all of the time in Deer Lake. 5000 overcast and 15 miles and JAZZ has the field in sight 20 miles back and will not cancel. We end up having to hold at BISGA at 6000 until they land or cancel IFR and they never cancel. We always cancel when we can to help the next guy out.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I have to wonder what the guys and gals at AC and WJ do when coming in to an uncontrolled airport like Grande Prairie or Kamloops or other places where the tower closes at night. Is this a hate-on for Jazz specifically, or is holding on to the IFR the norm for 705 operators in similar circumstances?

[Slappy the Squirrel]

I don't think it's fair to paint everybody at the same company with the same brush. One Jazz pilot, believe it or not, is not the mirror image of another Jazz pilot. Obviously they have their procedures in place which allow them to cancel given certain conditions, while other times they can't. I've seen them cancel a lot going into Wabush, which is a non-radar environment.

Also in their defense, I've had dummies pull off stunts if I cancel IFR to help them out. For example, taking off of the runway I'm planning on landing on heading straight at me, or diving down and passing 500 feet directly over me. A little etiquette would be nice, if someone cancels for you, try not make them regret helping you out...

[Redneck_pilot86]

Since when is not cancelling IFR "less than stellar airmanship"?! FFS.

Your issue is with the ATC system that for whatever reason, is incapable of sequencing aircraft close enough that they can allow you to descend lower than you desired. That's not a hack on ATC, there could be terrain or technical reasons for it, but it certainly isn't another operator's obligation to switch from IFR to VFR simply to speed things up for someone else. No one is "hanging on" to their IFR, it's completely normal - and mandated - for most airlines to only allow IFR ops. Most have strict limitations on even visual approaches (which are still IFR procedures). It isn't an issue of weather conditions whatsoever.

What would you suggest Jazz do if for some reason they go around for a reason other than weather? (Unstable approach, windshear, vehicle on the runway, whatever.) They're basically now going to have to do a VFR circuit. In an RJ, maybe with a crew who's never been to YXS. Have they briefed it? Probably not. They fly IFR procedures all day long, but when was the last time they flew a circuit? So is that safer than following a programmed procedure with positive lateral guidance and assured terrain clearance? I think not. Sure, they can "do" it, but aside from violating company SOP's, it's just poor risk management. All so that another a/c can save what, two minutes?

So a circling approach is out the window as well, is it?

[cpt.sam]

It is also an issue when you cancel at an airport such as Wabush to help other inbound traffic, that some greedy operator takes advantage of this and takes off in your face! FSS can suggest that they keep holding short, but with no control, they can, and do, completely disregard airmanship for the sake of 1-2 minutes.
It was not Jazz that did this, Jazz and us cx'd to help each other out, and another crew punked us.

[CpnCrunch]

Isn't that radar vs non-radar?

But Prince George does have radar (SSR). They decommissioned the primary radar recently because it was unnecessary in Nav Canada's opinion, but that shouldn't cause them to suddenly switch to procedural control as far as I know.

http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... 07g_en.pdf

[tbaylx]

Since when is not cancelling IFR "less than stellar airmanship"?! FFS.

Your issue is with the ATC system that for whatever reason, is incapable of sequencing aircraft close enough that they can allow you to descend lower than you desired. That's not a hack on ATC, there could be terrain or technical reasons for it, but it certainly isn't another operator's obligation to switch from IFR to VFR simply to speed things up for someone else. No one is "hanging on" to their IFR, it's completely normal - and mandated - for most airlines to only allow IFR ops. Most have strict limitations on even visual approaches (which are still IFR procedures). It isn't an issue of weather conditions whatsoever.

What would you suggest Jazz do if for some reason they go around for a reason other than weather? (Unstable approach, windshear, vehicle on the runway, whatever.) They're basically now going to have to do a VFR circuit. In an RJ, maybe with a crew who's never been to YXS. Have they briefed it? Probably not. They fly IFR procedures all day long, but when was the last time they flew a circuit? So is that safer than following a programmed procedure with positive lateral guidance and assured terrain clearance? I think not. Sure, they can "do" it, but aside from violating company SOP's, it's just poor risk management. All so that another a/c can save what, two minutes?

So a circling approach is out the window as well, is it?

It sure is for many airlines. As a matter of fact since its silly to circle in a medium or larger jet at circling minimums anyway, we don't even train teh circling anymore, nor do it on a ride, so we legally can't do a circling approach. Circling a B737 or larger is a different ballgame than hauling a King Air around.

Also Complex's employer wouldn't look too kindly on circling a T7 around the corner in low vis either. Heck they can't even accept visual approaches anymore over there. It's a different world and and they don't operate in non radar environments for approaches.