I heard that instructors could log time while their student is under the hood as hood time.

Is this true?

The last TC person I talked to about this (and I can't see why it would have changed) says

You can count instrument time if

you are recieving dual instruction in an approved FTD/sim
you are recieving dual instruction while under the hood

The guy teaching it logs nothing as far as instrument time goes unless it is actual.

ratboy wrote:I heard that instructors could log time while their student is under the hood as hood time.

Is this true?

No

The only thing that I know of is that you are able to use instrument instruction time that you teach as an instructor towards your 6-6-6 currency. I do understand this since teaching something keeps you pretty current in the skill. However that doesn't mean logging it.

I do know of at least one CFI of a school that insists that instructors can log instrument time that they teach. I don't see how, considering you're not on the instruments.

The only thing that I know of is that you are able to use instrument instruction time that you teach as an instructor towards your 6-6-6 currency.

If you can use it for currency then it has to be logged. That's the purpose of our logbooks according to CARs.

However, only instrument instruction time towards an instrument rating can be logged - again according to the CARs. So the stuff for the PPL, night rating, etc. cannot be logged.

sakism wrote:If you can use it for currency then it has to be logged. That's the purpose of our logbooks according to CARs.

It can be logged -- but it's not neither actual nor hood time. If you plan on logging it you will need to use a different column in your logbook.

Aeros wrote: It can be logged -- but it's not neither actual nor hood time. If you plan on logging it you will need to use a different column in your logbook.

That's what I do. However theonly thing I ever plan to use it for is if my IFR currency comes into question, I can go back 6 months. When I stop instructing and move on some day I don't plan on carrying forard any totals from that column though.

An instructor cannot log hood time when the student is under the hood, because the instructor isn't under the hood.

This should be pretty clear cut - you only log hood time when YOU are under the hood.

However, an instructor may log actual instrument time when teaching in cloud, and the student has his hands on the controls, and the student may or may not be wearing a hood. After all, they've filed on the instructor's instrument rating - he's PIC - so I guess it's fair enough he gets to log the actual IMC time.

This doesn't happen very much in Canada (school policies, known icing) so it's really not that much of an issue.

I can dig up the CARs reference for this if anyone has their knickers in a twist about it.

Miss Mae is correct but you can count the appraoches toward staying current.

correct me if i'm wrong but...

Lets say you're going on a x-country flight with your student for hood time. you plan to fly from toronto to london, to hamilton back to toronto (2hrs lets say of hood flying for your student and a few approaches). now you file IFR to do this flight. Since you are pilot in command you log the time as IFR, and you're student logs it as hood time.

Does this situation not work? now i agree you can't log hood time while your student is under the hood... but you should be able to log ifr time while that's happening.

uh, no. We've had this discussion many times before, and it has nothing to do with the student being there under the hood.

Open up your logbook. On the right side there will be probably be 3 columns like this:

"instrument - hood"
"instrument - actual"
"instrument - simulator"

The instructor was not under the hood, so he cannot log hood time.

The instructor did not fly in actual IMC, so he cannot log actual instrument time.

The instructor was not flying an approved ground simulator, so he cannot log simulator time.

Clear as mud? Don't confuse "instrument - actual" with IFR. IFR is a a set of rules, which you can operate under in VMC conditions.

You only log "instrument - actual" when the aircraft is in IMC wx conditions, which presumes that you are operating IFR, unless you are contravening the CARs.

So there is IFR, and IMC. One is a set of operating rules, and one is a weather condition. You only log "actual instrument" time in IMC.

Is this really that hard to comprehend?

Back to our scenario ... if the aircraft had spent 1.0 in cloud (in actual IMC) during the IFR flight with the student under the hood and at the controls, the instructor could log 1.0 actual - he was PIC and filed IFR on his ticket, and in cloud. Even though the student was wiggling the controls, the DOT allows instructors to log actual instrument time when the aircraft enters cloud (actual instrument conditions).

hz2p wrote:
The instructor did not fly in actual IMC, so he cannot log actual instrument time.

Clear as mud? Don't confuse "instrument - actual" with IFR. IFR is a a set of rules, which you can operate under in VMC conditions.

You only log "instrument - actual" when the aircraft is in IMC wx conditions, which presumes that you are operating IFR, unless you are contravening the CARs.

So there is IFR, and IMC. One is a set of operating rules, and one is a weather condition. You only log "actual instrument" time in IMC.

Is this really that hard to comprehend?

No it's not that hard to comprehend..

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;


As stated in the cars, it makes no mention of IMC, only IFR which as you put, is just flight rules... however that's what it's asking for. Although your flight may be VMC if you are filed IFR then the flight conditions for that day, are actual "ifr" since you are abiding by the instrument flight rules. I know this argument is really old, and i'm sure transport would correct the situation but i'm sure they're arguing over it as well. However, as it stands right now, it's stating the flight conditions... not the weather conditions... and it's IFR not IMC which they are looking for.

If you're log book actually says "Actual IMC" then by all means you're correct... but it doesn't.

*Edited*

.

What it says in your logbook is nothing but what the logbook manufacturer decided to put in. My own logbook has no column for 'hood' time. The columns in my logbook say 'Actual', 'Simulated', 'Simulator'. No where does it say hood or IMC.

If I file IFR, instructing or not, but fly in VMC conditions, I primarily use the flight instruments for flying and navigation. I'll glance outside to check for traffic, but I use the instruments to fly.

Logging instrument time is simpler than any of you state. If you use the instruments to fly, it is called instrument time. If you use outside visual reference to fly, it's not instrument time.

" Logging instrument time is simpler than any of you state. If you use the instruments to fly, it is called instrument time. If you use outside visual reference to fly, it's not instrument time. "

We need the above put in a sticky so there willl never ever be another thread discussing this subject.

The naval gazing and hand wringing over this very basic subject is maddening.

If a pilot is to brain dead to differienciate between two very basic methods of controlling a flying machine in flight I would suggest you take up knitting or some other hobby.

Log the f.ckin time based on what reference you used.

And finally please, please ,please, please quit hand wringing about what those brain dead drones at TC think about how the time is logged, to submit to their opinion is alowing your life to be decided by someone that did not have the ability to face life outside the protection of a Government job where there is no need for accountability......

...if you let them deny the time you logged you are allowing them to call you a liar...think about that.

Cat

Cat

well said cat. i agree lets let this thread die. i was beaten to death a few months ago and now its back. why?

Like The Night Of The Living Dead this topic just won't die.

Legal schmegal aside, what I do is log actual whenever I'd be really unhappy without an attitude indicator. That's not just inside a cloud, but hazy summer days and nighttime over the boonies. Practically speaking, it's not just about distance from cloud and flight visibility, which is the technical definition of IMC vs VMC.

What we need is TC to step up and clarify this, so everyone knows how to log the same way. And while their at it, please TC, put on a definition for "cross-country flight" so there are no more guesses.

TY

Regards

Tango01.

hz2p is right...quit arguing.

You cannot log actual time unless you are in IMC.

You cannot log "simulated" or "hood" time unless YOU are wearing the hood.

Regardless of whether or not you are on an IFR flight plan, if you are in VMC, traffic separation is shared between ATC and the PIC. This is why ATC will give traffic advisories to IFR a/c so that the PIC can find that traffic and ensure that separation is maintained.

The following definitions are directly from TC:

"instrument time" - instrument flight time or instrument ground time

"instrument flight time" - time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft by sole reference to the flight instruments and without external reference points.

"actual instrument flight time" - means flight time during which a pilot controls an aircraft flown in cloud or other conditions that prevent the use of external reference points and require the pilot to control the aircraft by sole reference to the flight instruments.

"simulated instrument flight time" - means flight time during which a pilot is controlling the aircraft by sole reference to the flight instruments during VFR conditions and while a safety pilot is on board.

"instrument ground time" - time during which a pilot is practicing simulated instrument flight on a synthetic flight trainer approved by the Department of Transport and appropriate to the category of licence or rating for which application is being made.

You can't log x/c time unless you are honestly using navigation techniques to get from A to B. Flying to and from the practice area does not count. If you are teaching a student how to navigate (ie diversions, x/c, etc.) then you can log x/c.

" You cannot log "simulated" or "hood" time unless YOU are wearing the hood. "

The wearing of a hood is bizzare as it is not a natural method of computing infromation from the eyes to the brain.

There is no way on earth that I would put such a device on to limit my vision, if one needs to block out all outside reference you should either fly in cloud or in total darkness or use two stage amber as the vision limiting means.

Cat

Cyrus - by the definition you gave - I see no mention of a hood under 'simulated instrument time'

Different ppl from Transport view this differently...it's like the law and open to judges interpretation.

"simulated instrument flight time" - means flight time during which a pilot is controlling the aircraft by sole reference to the flight instruments during VFR conditions and while a safety pilot is on board. "

Well as an instructor you are the P.I.C and are technically also flying the A/C via instruments, especially if the student is in initial instrument stages.

I would personally talk to a local TC rep that would be responsible for your area, ask them and get a name, so if anyone were to question it at a later date you can atleast attempt to cover your ass. A tape recoreded conversation would prolly even be better !

-=0=LIR=0=-

Not sure why I would have to cover MY ass...I am not the one trying to log bogus hours of instrument time that I never actually did. I have the name of the individual at TC that presented those definitions to me.

The term " your " in my post reffered to anyone who was given the green light by a TC inspector to log IFR hours when instructing. The term was meant as a generalization and non specific to you.

-=0=LIR=0=-