Inflight Entertainment
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Inflight Entertainment
I saw a quick blurb on CTV Newsnet last night about Inflight Entertainment possibly being a safety risk. There was no explanation. Has anybody seen anything reliable about this?
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alpha speed
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http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... 106685_197
Overheating tape machine on a Skyservice A320. Kinda bad timing for the Skyservice PR department.
Overheating tape machine on a Skyservice A320. Kinda bad timing for the Skyservice PR department.
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Canus Chinookus
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Unfortunately by the time the flight deck is aware of any potential problems with the entertainment system it’s often to late as the fire has become self sustaining. Think Swissair that we know about and lots of others where they were just plain lucky that we don’t hear about until while after the fact, if at all.
The aircraft manufactures have to start installing these high energy consummation systems rather then leaving it up to second and third parties. Then perhaps I would feel a little safer.
The aircraft manufactures have to start installing these high energy consummation systems rather then leaving it up to second and third parties. Then perhaps I would feel a little safer.
True enought that there are many instances of heat and smoke with IFE systems. However the Swissair system did not have switch that would immediatly cut power to the system. So arcing continued even as the crew knew there was a fire and a problem.They had no way to shut off the power. On most a/c's I have seen tyhere is an IFE switch in the cockpit or on the flt attendents panel as well as gallley shed or galley power switch to cut power to coffe makers and ovens just in case.
On Swissair 111 The circuit breaker blew as usual due to the load, it was the continuous recycling by the flightcrew the arced the wire thus causing a fire. Good thing from what i hear most of the equipment is located in pit 4 and as most people know has fire suppresors on the roof! So the 30 seconds that fire or smoke has been located and transmitted to pilots should help out!
Just a thought!
Just a thought!
Re; Swissair 111----That is not correct.
Circuit breakers will pop after a certain criteria of time and heat occur----in this case small arcing occured that didn't satisfy the parameters of the old type of circuit breaker to cause it to pop. Those small arcs were enough to ignite the old type of insulation. The fire had already started.
I'm a little fuzzy on some of the details, as it has been a while since I read the accident report, but I can check it out if you want any more specifics. The Swissair accident seems to have more rumour that is accepted as fact, and I am compelled to defend the crew that are often unjustly blamed.
Circuit breakers will pop after a certain criteria of time and heat occur----in this case small arcing occured that didn't satisfy the parameters of the old type of circuit breaker to cause it to pop. Those small arcs were enough to ignite the old type of insulation. The fire had already started.
I'm a little fuzzy on some of the details, as it has been a while since I read the accident report, but I can check it out if you want any more specifics. The Swissair accident seems to have more rumour that is accepted as fact, and I am compelled to defend the crew that are often unjustly blamed.
The Swiss Air report http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/199 ... 8h0003.asp With all due respect there is no reference to resetting CB’s in fact the fire started before the CB tripped! Sadly 15 minutes after the first smoke the CVR and FDR stopped working along with most of their instruments, 5 minutes later the aircraft hit the water. They had a major electrical problem, attempting to land at an unfamiliar airport, over featureless terrain, on a cloudy night.WS739 wrote:On Swissair 111 The circuit breaker blew as usual due to the load, it was the continuous recycling by the flightcrew the arced the wire thus causing a fire. Good thing from what i hear most of the equipment is located in pit 4 and as most people know has fire suppresors on the roof! So the 30 seconds that fire or smoke has been located and transmitted to pilots should help out!
Just a thought!
Fire in an aircraft is very serious stuff in any aircraft and luck better be on your side to get on the ground and out safely.
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Canus Chinookus
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The main CPU for the IFE is installed in the cargo hold, which just happens to have a smoke detector and a fire extinguising system. There's a switch to remove power from the entire system in the cockpit, AND the F/A's have their own off switch in the cabin, not to mention the interphone to tell the pilots of a problem with the system. What more do you want, rebel?Rebel wrote:Unfortunately by the time the flight deck is aware of any potential problems with the entertainment system it’s often to late as the fire has become self sustaining. Think Swissair that we know about and lots of others where they were just plain lucky that we don’t hear about until while after the fact, if at all.
The aircraft manufactures have to start installing these high energy consummation systems rather then leaving it up to second and third parties. Then perhaps I would feel a little safer.
Well that comment just smacks of someone totally uneducated in the aircraft certification process.Rebel wrote:The aircraft manufactures have to start installing these high energy consummation systems rather then leaving it up to second and third parties. Then perhaps I would feel a little safer.
Any modification or repair installed on an aircraft must either meet or exceed the same certificartion standards that the original aircraft was. In the case of all inflight entertainment systems, because of Swissair, TC, the FAA, JAA, etc are extremely cautious and it is for the better. That's a good part of why it took WestJet about a year to certify the LiveTV system - I know, I was involved in the process.
As for having a manufacturer install the system at manufacture, they aren't going to do it. That slows production, customers each want things slightly different, and items like the galleys and passenger seats are not designed by them. Therefore a manufacturer like Boeing has no legal right to modify or alter that item. At WestJet, we've convinced Boeing to install as much of the LiveTV and Satcomm equipment as they can, but we still have to ground each plane and complete the installations ourselves.
Clear skies and calm winds...
Trevor
Trevor
Trevor
Well gee whiz on the Swissair tragedy the entertainment system was installed by a third party and supposedly was duly inspected and signed out. It was suppose to have been be done by the book however that’s not what happened. Don't you mean you have a third party to complete the installation or are you authorized to do the work yourselfs..
Canus Chinookus
Since you’re new to the game of entertainment systems and what can and does go wrong there’s no point in talking to a smart guy like yourself. Good luck..
By the way we were having an interesting thread about entertainment systems not WJ until you came along, don't you think its time you got rid of that chip on your shoulder?
Well gee whiz on the Swissair tragedy the entertainment system was installed by a third party and supposedly was duly inspected and signed out. It was suppose to have been be done by the book however that’s not what happened. Don't you mean you have a third party to complete the installation or are you authorized to do the work yourselfs..
Canus Chinookus
Since you’re new to the game of entertainment systems and what can and does go wrong there’s no point in talking to a smart guy like yourself. Good luck..
By the way we were having an interesting thread about entertainment systems not WJ until you came along, don't you think its time you got rid of that chip on your shoulder?
Last edited by Rebel on Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hey, coffee makers and lav's have malfunctioned and caused fires in the past (AC DC-9 as a matter of fact), but I don't think anyone is targetting those systems in particular, or WestJet because we have them.
The fact is everything can break, and we must always be diligent in ensuring the highest standards are met so as to minimize the chance of anything causing an inflight emergency.
But trying to take potshots at WestJet over something like this is ridiculous, and reeks of glass housed stone throwing. Anyone who is truly a professional aviator would certainly agree with that---right?
The fact is everything can break, and we must always be diligent in ensuring the highest standards are met so as to minimize the chance of anything causing an inflight emergency.
But trying to take potshots at WestJet over something like this is ridiculous, and reeks of glass housed stone throwing. Anyone who is truly a professional aviator would certainly agree with that---right?
Seeing as how this topic is about IFE, in a Westjet forum, I think any mention of Westjet is perfectly legit. If you don't like it, Rebel, don't participate in the discussion.By the way we were having an interesting thread about entertainment systems not WJ until you came along, don't you think its time you got rid of that chip on your shoulder?
Who really has the chip on his shoulder, here?
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Canus Chinookus
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Ah, I can see that I feel into the wonderful Rebel trap right off the bat.Rebel wrote:Well gee whiz on the Swissair tragedy the entertainment system was installed by a third party and supposedly was duly inspected and signed out. It was suppose to have been be done by the book however that’s not what happened. Don't you mean you have a third party to complete the installation or are you authorized to do the work yourselfs..
Yes, WestJet has third-party maintenance providers complete much of our maintenance work for us. However, you convienently forget that every airline still has to have tech reps and inspectors that ensure that the work done meets the company's terms and conditions for quality, etc.
The Swissair tragedy was just that - a tragedy. There were shortcomings in the design that weren't caught, by the designers, the manfacturer, the FAA and Swissair. When combined with the old, worn insulation of the MD-11, all the links made the poverbial 'accident chain.'
As for the point of my original post, it wasn't to say that WestJet does this, or Air Canada does that. It was to show that manufacturers like Boeing and Airbus are no better off installing any IFE system themselves, simply because they're the manufacturer. Any designer must meet the same rules and regulations as Boeing must or their product, whether LiveTV, seatback screens, overhead screens, or a portable DVD player taped to the drop down table will not be certified.
Remember this comment? You wrote it, I addressed it, you shot off on a tangent.
Rebel wrote:The aircraft manufactures have to start installing these high energy consummation systems rather then leaving it up to second and third parties. Then perhaps I would feel a little safer.
.Rebel wrote:You’re right I should be hanging out where the professional pilots post.
There's a lot more than just pilots in aviation Rebel. Besides, professionalism is defined by one's actions and behavior, not by their pay cheque.
Clear skies and calm winds...
Trevor
Trevor
Well ryan im only quoting what my father told me after HIS breifing when he arrived at the CRASH Scene and was briefed by and holds documents/pictures regarding the crash!Ryan Coke wrote:Re; Swissair 111----That is not correct.
Circuit breakers will pop after a certain criteria of time and heat occur----in this case small arcing occured that didn't satisfy the parameters of the old type of circuit breaker to cause it to pop. Those small arcs were enough to ignite the old type of insulation. The fire had already started.
I'm a little fuzzy on some of the details, as it has been a while since I read the accident report, but I can check it out if you want any more specifics. The Swissair accident seems to have more rumour that is accepted as fact, and I am compelled to defend the crew that are often unjustly blamed.
Just passing what i know and what my dad knows when he does presentations on behalf of the RCMP about swissair !!!.
But im not saying its 100 correct but definetly not some rumor!
Hi WS,
I certainly don't mean to argue with what your father told you, or what information he has from the accident. My only reference is what was published in the final accident investigation report.
In the report there is no mention of pilot re-setting of any circuit beakers. One would think that if there was any evidence to support that, then it would have been mentioned somewhere in the factual analysis, or in the Findings as to causes and contributing factors.
There is a significant amount of analysis and discussion on the inherent characteristics and shortcomings of conventional circuit breaker technology----this is a small sample---"The arced in-flight entertainment network (IFEN) power supply unit (PSU) cables were protected by conventional CBs typical of those used in the remainder of the aircraft and throughout the aviation industry. Two of the PSU cables (exhibits 1-3790 and 1-3791) had arcing events that did not trip the associated CB. It is most likely that the CBs did not trip because the electrical characteristics of the arcs were outside the defined Time versus Current curve."
Perhaps the theory that your Father told you was an initial hypothesis at the accident scene, which was later found to be lacking in evidence.
I would be curious as to why he would still be placing unsubstantiated blame on the flight crew, that conflicts with the findings of the accident investigation, while doing presentations on behalf on the RCMP.
I certainly don't mean to argue with what your father told you, or what information he has from the accident. My only reference is what was published in the final accident investigation report.
In the report there is no mention of pilot re-setting of any circuit beakers. One would think that if there was any evidence to support that, then it would have been mentioned somewhere in the factual analysis, or in the Findings as to causes and contributing factors.
There is a significant amount of analysis and discussion on the inherent characteristics and shortcomings of conventional circuit breaker technology----this is a small sample---"The arced in-flight entertainment network (IFEN) power supply unit (PSU) cables were protected by conventional CBs typical of those used in the remainder of the aircraft and throughout the aviation industry. Two of the PSU cables (exhibits 1-3790 and 1-3791) had arcing events that did not trip the associated CB. It is most likely that the CBs did not trip because the electrical characteristics of the arcs were outside the defined Time versus Current curve."
Perhaps the theory that your Father told you was an initial hypothesis at the accident scene, which was later found to be lacking in evidence.
I would be curious as to why he would still be placing unsubstantiated blame on the flight crew, that conflicts with the findings of the accident investigation, while doing presentations on behalf on the RCMP.
Rebel,Rebel wrote:Ryan Coke
Who was taking shots at WJ? You guys really have a problem..
I re-read the thread, and you are right, there weren't really any overt shots at WJ. I apologize for the last paragraph of my post.
I must've confused it with one of the other threads where somebody was trying to bash WestJet unnecessarily.
Trevor
My last remark was not aimed at you but you must admit we have our share of uneducated twits on this forum. I hadn’t set any traps for you it was just a question although I still prefer all third party work to be completed by the manufacture...
Ryan Coke
Yes I’ve done the same thing myself. You might be interested to know that the 340 doesn’t have any circuit breakers only a few reset buttons. I also understand that Airbus has even removed those off their latest equipment. It's all about need to know and do, it appears in the new world order, pilots don't need to know or do.
My last remark was not aimed at you but you must admit we have our share of uneducated twits on this forum. I hadn’t set any traps for you it was just a question although I still prefer all third party work to be completed by the manufacture...
Ryan Coke
Yes I’ve done the same thing myself. You might be interested to know that the 340 doesn’t have any circuit breakers only a few reset buttons. I also understand that Airbus has even removed those off their latest equipment. It's all about need to know and do, it appears in the new world order, pilots don't need to know or do.
