New owner - throwing myself to wolves

[Rookie50]

Hello maintenance Blog.

I am new owner of a 1978 R - 182, from the west GTA. Plane is in the import process now with a reputable import shop.

I am looking for recommends for a long term AME / Shop I can trust that knows the R - 182, in west GTA or SW Ontario. I am open to hearing thoughts on this, either recommends or stay away froms.

Appreciate posts here or PM me.

[azimuthaviation]

I will be very curious to know what the final bill will be when it leaves the reputable import shop.

[Colonel Sanders]

I will be an optimist and guess $10,000.

[Rookie50]

If there are suggestions on the import I am happy to listen as well.

[azimuthaviation]

I will be an optimist and guess $10,000.

So about half the cost of the first annual?

[cgzro]

I can vouch for Mo Nesbit at Corporate Aircraft in Oshawa. They are honnest, do good quality work and are very pleasant to deal with. Hes been working on my Pitts for a number of years and ive been very satisfied. Highly recommended.

[Colonel Sanders]

How expensive and time-consuming the import
is, depends upon the aircraft that you choose.

If the aircraft has good paper, and is in good
physical condition, you will sail through the import.

All you will have to do, is put new letters on it
and perhaps install a fire extinguisher. If you
choose the right aircraft, you can peel the old
letters off and simply apply a new 12 inch decal
on the side.

If the aircraft has bad paper, or is in poor physical
condition, the import will be slow and expensive.
It may not even be possible to repair the paper
and the aircraft to what Transport will accept.

Please don't confuse a shiny paint job, with good
mechanical/electrical condition.

I tell everyone that will listen, that any time you
purchase an aircraft, you must have YOUR mechanic
do the pre-purchase inspection, which will be an
annual/100hr inspection of the aircraft and it's logs
and AD compliance.

This is especially true for an import. He will produce
a long list of snags which you take to the seller and
negotiate the price of the aircraft on.

[Rookie50]

Aircraft has had all AD's complied with. All 337's. Logs are complete and perfect from what we know.

Had quite a bit done in the US, like prop o/h and gear motor o/h prior to import, as well as a couple of AD's that were overlooked. Excellent overall physical condition for a 1978.

Plane is out of annual so annual will be done co -incident with import, although a very thorough pre - buy was done before I bought it by people I know in the US. All squawks -- all minor really -- were rectified. Then I had some avionics done and that is complete, so waiting on the ferry flight paperwork now. It should be clean now apart from completion of a Canadian annual.

[cgzro]

337s are not automatically recognized in Canada.

[photofly]

Modifications are the big bugbear; lots of things can be signed off by a FSDO that won't pass in Canada, and have to be removed or reverted on import. Best of luck.

[Colonel Sanders]

a very thorough pre - buy was done before I bought it by people I know in the US

... and there's your mistake.

Always, always, always have YOUR AME do
the pre-purchase inspection, which should be a complete
annual inspection.

If you do not do that, your AME is certain to find all
sorts of expensive things that he does not like. I wish
I had a buck for every time an owner told me, "My
first annual was really expensive!"

A few months back, I ferried an N-reg aircaft from
Texas to Ontario. This aircraft had perfect paperwork
and had an expensive inspection performed by the
worldwide-acknowledged expert type maintenance
company. Everyone in Canada sends them big
pieces of airplanes to rebuild.

New owner told me the import should only take a
couple weeks. I laughed out loud. Months later,
the import is finally done. Turns out the exhaust
was totally shot - it was being held on by two bolts,
the AMO says - and needs to be totally replaced
with new. Etc.

Import cost him $7,500 - for the best aircraft in
the USA. He spent almost a year looking for it.

[Justjohn]

All 337's.



Uh-oh.

[azimuthaviation]

All squawks -- all minor really -- were rectified.

they always throw a few in there, to try to make it look legit.

[azimuthaviation]

I dont know if a pre purchase inspection needs to be as involved as a 100hr/annual. If you look at 3 or 4 planes how much money are you out just shopping around? Any major red flags will jump out quickly if you know what youre looking for. If after an hour of pointed searching theres nothing theres a good chance youre not going to lose your shirt. If after an hour you find two or three big question marks, just stop. You know the rest wont be good, why spend more time? The owner isnt going to drop his price to reflect the price to rectify it, he is going to find some other sap to pay him top dollar.

[cgzro]

First step I would take before giving cash is get copies of all 337s or other mods and have my mechanic verify that they are acceptable. if mods are not accepted they have to be redone or undone. so even if everything is pristine you can get burned. I remember a plane imported that had a 337 repair to the tail, was not accepted and had to be redone, likewise a plane with a wing that had been replaced with identical one used from a damaged plane but part number on plate was wrong and...

You really should involve the importing mechanic before laying down cash, much safer.

[photofly]

First step I would take before giving cash is get copies of all 337s or other mods and have my mechanic verify that they are acceptable.

Absolutely. In fact I'd go further: I fed-exed a complete copy of all the logs and paperwork to the (Canadian) person doing the import who was familiar with what TC would find acceptable.

[Rookie50]

337's were for things like a standby vacuum system, soros vents, ect....have all been reviewed up here before I bought.

The wings were not relocated to the underside of the AC......

[Rookie50]

First step I would take before giving cash is get copies of all 337s or other mods and have my mechanic verify that they are acceptable.

Absolutely. In fact I'd go further: I fed-exed a complete copy of all the logs and paperwork to the (Canadian) person doing the import who was familiar with what TC would find acceptable.

I did this before I bought it. Obviously no 100% guarantees everything will be perfect but they were reviewed with no issues raised.

[Colonel Sanders]

If you are remotely interested in an aircraft,
for pocket change you can get a complete
digital list emailed to you, of all 337's and
liens for any N-reg aircraft, in less than a
day. The FAA has all this online in OKC.

Amazingly few people do this. It can be
startling what you can discover. Liens from
decades ago from little banks that no longer
exist. Serious damage repairs.

[ruddersup?]

Might I suggest Air Muskoka at the Muskoka airport for the maintenance on you 182R. Two brothers there are very familiar with that aircraft having maintained one for years. They have the jacks and service/parts manual. They will pick up and deliver your aircraft as well. You won't be disappointed.

[black hole]

The first thing is that the AC must comply with the type certificate!!! Any mods must have a copy of the STC or approved repair and a 337 form attached and an amended equipment list and weight and balance. This is the part that gets snagged the most. Chasing down paper work after the fact is time consuming.

BH

[Colonel Sanders]

Yup. It might be easier during an import just to
weigh the damned thing. That and an equipment
list should do it.

[CID]

Many of the answers for your questions are contained in TCCA Staff Instruction 513-003.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/o ... 03-968.htm

FAA STCs on small aircraft are accepted without review regardless if they are installed before or after import. Field approvals and 8110-3 approvals are accepted without review only during import and only if the they are "consistent and conform to the requirements of FAA Order 8900.1, Vol. 4, Chapter 9."

Unfortunately, field approvals and 8110-3 approvals are generally crap so if it's for something critical, get it checked over. Furthermore, there is a disturbingly high percentage of these approvals that were not documented properly and therefore do not meet the criteria of 513-003. Many MDMs fail to catch the discrepancies.

[cgartly]

Don't forget that your ferry permit that you obtain in the USA is not valid in Canada so you have to obtain one for a modest fee from TC as well.

Import depends largely upon the minsters delegate that your shop uses, some can be extremely picky and will not accept 337's at all because they don't want to risk TC reviewing them, others will accept that as long as it isn't for anything too major.

Also for any STC's installed you should have letter's of authorization to use the STC's from the STC holder.

I have imported both with and without an Export C of A, there are pro's and con's to both. If working with a good shop in the USA it can be much cheaper to import with an Export C of A as the aircraft does then not need another annual inspection in Canada.

When I searched for a shop to import my first A/C I phoned around to various shops within about a 2 hr flight of me, 10K was a common number for an import. I've done one for about 2.5k and another for 4.5k (needed an elevator re-skinned - had a crack across a corrugated section that was stop drilled but not acceptable per Cessna MM).

As the Colonel said paperwork is King.

Personally if I were you I would have the annual done in the USA, set up a trust to own the aircraft and keep it N registered. You'll save yourself the import costs + 2K annually on insurance to start.

[Rookie50]

Don't forget that your ferry permit that you obtain in the USA is not valid in Canada so you have to obtain one for a modest fee from TC as well.

Import depends largely upon the minsters delegate that your shop uses, some can be extremely picky and will not accept 337's at all because they don't want to risk TC reviewing them, others will accept that as long as it isn't for anything too major.

Also for any STC's installed you should have letter's of authorization to use the STC's from the STC holder.

I have imported both with and without an Export C of A, there are pro's and con's to both. If working with a good shop in the USA it can be much cheaper to import with an Export C of A as the aircraft does then not need another annual inspection in Canada.

When I searched for a shop to import my first A/C I phoned around to various shops within about a 2 hr flight of me, 10K was a common number for an import. I've done one for about 2.5k and another for 4.5k (needed an elevator re-skinned - had a crack across a corrugated section that was stop drilled but not acceptable per Cessna MM).

As the Colonel said paperwork is King.

Personally if I were you I would have the annual done in the USA, set up a trust to own the aircraft and keep it N registered. You'll save yourself the import costs + 2K annually on insurance to start.

Excellent comments. All things I learned in my research already -- but thanks for the confirmation. Paperwork is great and I am working with a good MD in Canada who has seen it already. I will be doing the annual in Canada though, was the best option. My understanding for an export C of A is the MD has to still travel there to oversee the annual.

I do need a C registration this time. That is an option though -- keeping US -- I considered. The other benefit for resale -- if I ever did -- is this bird will be extremely attractive with its history, condition and equipment. There is exactly 1 (loaded though) R182 for sale in Canada, they want 180K for it.