One-man train crews banned

[Meatservo]

Just saw on the news, one of the outcomes of the Lac Megantic tragedy is that one-man crews have been outlawed. This is great news. I can't help wondering if the same rationale might someday put the brakes on the single-pilot airliner idea. I happen to believe that human beings work more effectively in teams. I used to fly single-pilot, and for the last decade I've been flying in a crew, and I can I think, confidently comment that with the other guy there, I am less tired, less stressed-out, more engaged in the task and more likely to make good decisions.

And you know what, at the end of the day, another couple of hundred guys are going to be able to have a decent-paying job. I wonder how many CEO and director bonuses it would take to pay a hundred regular guys to make transportation a little safer? My guess: not many.

[Jack In The Box]

At first glance, and I'll admit I've done 0 research, it sounds like a knee jerk reaction by politicians to appease the public ire. A lot like Congress raising the 1500 TT requirement for Part 121 FO's in the US. It's a bandaid, it covers the sore. Not solving the problem at all.

[iflyforpie]

I agree, sounds like a knee jerk reaction.

Had two crew left a train overnight on the main line with the same number of hand brakes set with a locomotive malfunctioning so badly that the general public took notice, would the results be any different?

[armchair]

Somehow bylaw officers in major cities can immobilize vehicles with a simple mechanical device, but an entire rail industry cannot physically immobilize parked wagons on a steel track? Surely they have methods beyond such archaic devices as air brakes? Here are things they should enact :

- movement alert system, so if the train moves when it should not, someone is alerted.
- physical immobilizers in addition to brakes
- security guard or at least remote video surveillance for all dangerous goods trains parked without a crew onboard

you'd think these basic things should have been in place for years...

[Meatservo]

You're right about the handbrakes, but I still feel that there is a relationship to the number of people who are responsible for operating the machinery. I think either negligence, forgetfulness, incompetence or ignorance of the rules is more difficult to perpetrate in groups.

[Prairiefire]

But meat, your comrades are always knocking your spleen out on floats. That cant be good for the medical

[Meatservo]

I'm not sure what my spleen has to do with this topic, and I think you're thinking of somebody else.

[CpnCrunch]

It does seem kind of ridiculous to rely on brakes. When was the last time you relied on the parking brake on your plane when leaving it overnight?

[Box car]

Somehow bylaw officers in major cities can immobilize vehicles with a simple mechanical device, but an entire rail industry cannot physically immobilize parked wagons on a steel track? Surely they have methods beyond such archaic devices as air brakes? Here are things they should enact :

- movement alert system, so if the train moves when it should not, someone is alerted.
- physical immobilizers in addition to brakes
- security guard or at least remote video surveillance for all dangerous goods trains parked without a crew onboard

you'd think these basic things should have been in place for years...

Hello all. First time poster here. I am an employee of Canadian pacific rail, and the changes have already began. First off there are such devices, they are the mechanical hand brakes on each car and locomotive. They are total mechanical and are separate from the air system. The down fall is they need to be cranked on by a human! Downfall is railroaders are lazy! There are also devices called de rails and they are seen on storage tracks and in yards. They do make portable ones as well. They are a big chunk of steal that is on a hinge and have an angled piece on top that the wheel rides up on and off the rail onto the ground. I have never seen a portable one in use.

As for the changes, we have a book named the goi, kinda like a company operating manual. It has all the rules and procedures on how to do things. They have recently rescinded our section 14 handbrake policy's and have issued a whole new rewrote section with all sorts if updates. Biggest change is we cannot leave any dangerous goods cars unattended on a main line or siding. Just the other night I had to stay on the train to wait for a new crew to take controll, about 3 hours. I highly doubt that this change will stay in affect.

At cp when we are to leave a train for staging we tie it down with manual hand brakes, the conductor goes back and starts cranking the manual brakes on each car and then gets the engineer to pull or push the slack for testing the effectiveness. If the train rolls, crank on a few more and test again. On flat ground a similar oil train with 75 cars would need 10 brakes. The train train that rolled away in Quebec was on mountain grade, it would need a whole lot more. My guess would be 25 - 30 mabe to be safe.. With a single guy working, he's not going to crank on 25 hand brakes then walk up and test to find out that he needs to walk back 25 cars and crank on some more. We leave trains with a full set train brake and locomotive independent brake but only as extra! Legally the hand brakes need to be on anytime the train is going to be left without someone close enough to take action if its needed.

[Siddley Hawker]

I can't understand why one would park a train on the main line and walk off and leave it, never mind parking the thing on a grade and walking off and leaving it. Are there no sidings on that line?

[Meatservo]

With a single guy working, he's not going to crank on 25 hand brakes then walk up and test to find out that he needs to walk back 25 cars and crank on some more.

So.. a two (or more) man crew IS safer. There's no limit to human laziness, and another crewmember being there to help or at least watch you makes you more likely to follow the rules. Human nature. You AvCanada guys seem to love pretending that there is no way someone could fail to do their duty; people do it all the time.

What, in all of your opinions, is the advantage to a one-man crew? I mean for you? Cheaper shipping? Dream on. Nothing gets cheaper. The moneyed class uses their savings to reward themselves.

By the way, thanks for the insight and welcome to the disfunction, box car, from a fellow (former) CP rail man.

[Kurwa]

Interesting insight, boxcar, but would something like a chock be a reasonable device to employ additionally? A metal block that sit on top of the rail against the wheel of the downhill car along with a strut that protrudes down to the sleeper or other part of the rail keeper...if it is never allowed to move and gain momentum?...

[SeptRepair]

I wonder if duty times are at play here. Im sure the rail industries must have such a thing. Lets say the guy was dutied out at 11:00pm and had be be rested and available for duty at 7 the next morning. Is there a chance he may have felt pressure to skip a few steps in securing the train, so he could get some proper rest?

[Box car]

With a single guy working, he's not going to crank on 25 hand brakes then walk up and test to find out that he needs to walk back 25 cars and crank on some more.

So.. a two (or more) man crew IS safer. There's no limit to human laziness

Absolutely a 2 or more man crew is safer. It's essential. Riding a train in the middle of the night by yourself would be ridiculous to say the least! Look at the passenger train this spring around Toronto area that hit the bush, 3 guys upfront and they still missed the signal. 1 guy up front running is a recipe for disaster. Locomotives are equipped with a system that will shut the throttles off and apply the air brakes is a button is not pushed every minute or two, it'll flash then start beeping then stop the movement. This system was brought in after the Hinton Alberta head on crash years ago. Locomotives used to just have a dead man switch but guys would either stick the lunch box or Hamm it with a thermos or the like.

Duty times had a major roll in this as well. I'm not sure about the main Atlantic but cp has an absolute transport Canada time out of 12 hours per shift and up to 18 on your max clock and we have an option of giving notice to only work 10 hours and if over we get a payment and are on mandatory rest for 8 hours to reset the clock. An employee can only be on one train for a Max of up to 12 hours then cannot do anything duty related. Including putting handbrakes on! If your going to as we call it double out( meaning come straight home on another train) were allowed 18 hours. At our home terminal we need 8 hours rest to reset our clicks, away from home 6 hours. We are also governed by miles per month. Cp is 3500 miles per month. My mile period is the 4th of each month, so if I really work hard and bang the trips off before the 4th of the month I can be off for miles until the start of my mileage period. Another silly transport Canada law! All thus dies is make guys work like whores in surch of a few days off without penalty.

Back to lac magnetic, duty time absolutely played a big part in this tragedy and also the company being too cheap to have another crew available to re-crew this thing when the crew ran out of time on his clock. There should have been another crew there to take controll. Ill bet that the train would have and probably has sat there for 6 or 8 hours while the poor guy resets his click and gets a little shut eye!

Another thing I found interesting was when the CEO claimed it was safer statistacly to only run a 1 man crew as the chances of injury are smaller! Really?? What an idiot.

The de- rail is like choks for the wheels but engineered to derail it invade of rollaway. Mabe this will be the next big change for rail shippers is to mandated the use of these devices when trains are left on the lines? Like I said before, you cannot get any simpler or safer then handbrakes but they need to be put on by a lazy human being, it involves work wich quite simply is a thing of the past for most.

Sorry for babbling!

[Box car]

With a single guy working, he's not going to crank on 25 hand brakes then walk up and test to find out that he needs to walk back 25 cars and crank on some more.

So.. a two (or more) man crew IS safer. There's no limit to human laziness

Absolutely a 2 or more man crew is safer. It's essential. Riding a train in the middle of the night by yourself would be ridiculous to say the least! Look at the passenger train this spring around Toronto area that hit the bush, 3 guys upfront and they still missed the signal. 1 guy up front running is a recipe for disaster. Locomotives are equipped with a system that will shut the throttles off and apply the air brakes is a button is not pushed every minute or two, it'll flash then start beeping then stop the movement. This system was brought in after the Hinton Alberta head on crash years ago. Locomotives used to just have a dead man switch but guys would either stick the lunch box or Hamm it with a thermos or the like.

Duty times had a major roll in this as well. I'm not sure about the main Atlantic but cp has an absolute transport Canada time out of 12 hours per shift and up to 18 on your max clock and we have an option of giving notice to only work 10 hours and if over we get a payment and are on mandatory rest for 8 hours to reset the clock. An employee can only be on one train for a Max of up to 12 hours then cannot do anything duty related. Including putting handbrakes on! If your going to as we call it double out( meaning come straight home on another train) were allowed 18 hours. At our home terminal we need 8 hours rest to reset our clicks, away from home 6 hours. We are also governed by miles per month. Cp is 3500 miles per month. My mile period is the 4th of each month, so if I really work hard and bang the trips off before the 4th of the month I can be off for miles until the start of my mileage period. Another silly transport Canada law! All thus dies is make guys work like whores in surch of a few days off without penalty.

Back to lac magnetic, duty time absolutely played a big part in this tragedy and also the company being too cheap to have another crew available to re-crew this thing when the crew ran out of time on his clock. There should have been another crew there to take controll. Ill bet that the train would have and probably has sat there for 6 or 8 hours while the poor guy resets his click and gets a little shut eye!

Another thing I found interesting was when the CEO claimed it was safer statistacly to only run a 1 man crew as the chances of injury are smaller! Really?? What an idiot.

The de- rail is like choks for the wheels but engineered to derail it invade of rollaway. Mabe this will be the next big change for rail shippers is to mandated the use of these devices when trains are left on the lines? Like I said before, you cannot get any simpler or safer then handbrakes but they need to be put on by a lazy human being, it involves work wich quite simply is a thing of the past for most.

Sorry for babbling!

Edit to add. Sorry for the bad grammar and shit, I am just a dumb ex bush rat and railroader!

[Meatservo]

No way man, your insight is appreciated. Thanks for commenting.

[grimey]

Another thing I found interesting was when the CEO claimed it was safer statistacly to only run a 1 man crew as the chances of injury are smaller! Really?? What an idiot.

I missed that, that's retarded. Not to sound uncaring, but the safety of the engineer is one of the last things I'm concerned about as far as railway safety is concerned. Derailments, crashes, etc are all WAY higher up the list of priorities.

By this logic, they should just guess how much fuel it need to get to the destination, start the train, then jump off. Now there's 0 chance of the crew getting hurt.

Anyway, thanks for the input.

[Panama Jack]

You're right about the handbrakes, but I still feel that there is a relationship to the number of people who are responsible for operating the machinery. I think either negligence, forgetfulness, incompetence or ignorance of the rules is more difficult to perpetrate in groups.

Bring back the Flight Engineer!

Actually, the first Boeing 737's were operated with a Flight Engineer on the insistence ofALPA, sitting on that wretched jumpseat. I believe he was responsible for getting coffee.

[TG]

On flat ground a similar oil train with 75 cars would need 10 brakes. The train train that rolled away in Quebec was on mountain grade, it would need a whole lot more. My guess would be 25 - 30 maybe to be safe.

So basically some people are setting bare minimum cars on brakes when they leave a train for staging.
And some will give themselves a buffer.

All that is telling me (as a true Joe blow public who doesn't know much about train) is:
"Bare minimum !? If only one car's hand brake fail out of the lot, the whole thing will start rolling down hill"
Does those hand brakes have a good reliability in general ?


Thanks for your insight by the way...

[Keenflyer]

Interesting when the Rail boss first commented he stated it was the employees fault, I'm sure it was only a day or so after the accident. You would think there would need to be some fairly thorough investigation before any blame?

[Meatservo]

"My first thought was, he lied with every word". Was that T.S. Elliott, or Browning? Oh well, anyway what I mean is I thought that guy was pretty shifty. I think he was scared shitless he was going to be fragged right then and there by the townsfolk and was talking way off the cuff to try and make it sound like they already knew who dunnit, and let's go tar and feather THAT guy, not me!!!

Pretty weak. I've had bosses I haven't cared for, but I've never seen a guy like that before!

The handbrakes are pretty reliable. They are no more than a sprocket with a sprung dog that engages and stays like that until they are knocked off. There aren't many ways they can fail.

As a former "brakeman" myself, I've been thinking a lot about this accident and have a real hard time picturing the train, even if it was able to move with the amount of brakes the engineerconductorbrakeman said he tied on, actually being able to accelerate to the kind of speeds they said it was going when it crashed. I mean it must have had NO brakes by that point. And if any hand-brakes WERE tied on, the wheels on those cars would have been dragging. Has anyone here seen what happens to a dragging wheel at speed on a loaded car? It gets so hot it causes bits of metal to flake off the railhead and weld themselves to the wheel. They would certainly be able to tell if that had happened.

I wonder if they are looking into mischief as a cause. I hope that doesn't sound sensationist or stupid, but it IS pretty easy to release individual cars' airbrakes and just as easy to knock off handbrakes. If the train brakes were in emergency it would take about as long to bleed off the cars as it would take you to walk the length of the train. It's simple.

[crazy_aviator]

Okay, can we now sum up the Avcanada investigation of this train "accident" ? in 2 words or less ? Hint : (( LAZY BASTARDS ))

[Lpsi]

I couldnt help but see the mental optics at work on the revised rules, thankyou Ms Rait!@!!!

study this closely,

" Biggest change is we cannot leave any dangerous goods cars unattended on a main line or siding."

then ask,

If you got a run away train heading your way "does it realy matter whats on the train? "

HELLLO??

Just goes to show how disconnected the governing bodied are with the industries they claim to over see.

Sickening

[Box car]

A load of grain would make a bit of a mess but the town would still be there and not look like an a bomb went off.

In other news cp put 7 tanks on their side in lloydminster ab this past weekend. I do not know details of the incident but don't think much was spilled. The same day in southern ab near the Montana boarder a coal train hit the bush.

I sure hope the tsb is investigating our new CEO and his ruthless leadership. Cp has had 3 major oil tank spills in derailments caused by wheels and shitty old track, 1 head on, 3 bridges with 2 of them major derailments. I call bullshit on the coincidence that all these accident/ incendents having nothing to do with the major changes happening at cp. Hunter Harrison has gut nearly 4000 jobs mostly all desk jobs but they've shut down and laid off a pile of mechanics and carman. These people were the guys who did the inspections on trains, they would give a train a complete mechanical before it would leave a yard. Now some old crew clerk who's never worked with this equipment watches it by as it leaves!

The same trend is happening at cp right now as happened at cn when hunter harrision was CEO. Accident rates through the roof, injury rates way up and lots of job loss. The stocks are doing really well though and have doubled in a year, as long as the shareholders are getting rich at any cost is. It really is a work with fear mentality like he states.

That's my little rant of the day folks!

[Rockie]

I sure hope the tsb is investigating our new CEO and his ruthless leadership. Cp has had 3 major oil tank spills in derailments caused by wheels and shitty old track, 1 head on, 3 bridges with 2 of them major derailments. I call bullshit on the coincidence that all these accident/ incendents having nothing to do with the major changes happening at cp. Hunter Harrison has gut nearly 4000 jobs mostly all desk jobs but they've shut down and laid off a pile of mechanics and carman. These people were the guys who did the inspections on trains, they would give a train a complete mechanical before it would leave a yard. Now some old crew clerk who's never worked with this equipment watches it by as it leaves!

The same trend is happening at cp right now as happened at cn when hunter harrision was CEO. Accident rates through the roof, injury rates way up and lots of job loss. The stocks are doing really well though and have doubled in a year, as long as the shareholders are getting rich at any cost is. It really is a work with fear mentality like he states.

That's my little rant of the day folks!

You're spot on. CN stock did very well when Harrison was CEO there, but unfortunately it was at the expense of safety just like any other transportation company. Stock price is the reason Bill Ackman and Pershing Square Capital forced out the old CP leadership and installed Harrison...he has a proven history of increasing the value of a company for shareholders. Safety be damned.

Just like the aviation industry, do not expect help from Transport Canada once this issue is replaced by something else in the news.