Rouge rosters?

[lov2fly]

Just wondering what kind of Rosters they are getting at Rouge? Either on the 319 or the 767. I'm in the pool and expect a class date in the fall. I live in YUL so I know I will be commuting. Anyone knows if the pairings consists of multi day pairings or if your back to yyz everynight?

Cheers

[Slappy the Squirrel]

I'm in the same boat as you.

From what I hear the A319 is for the most part single days. Long days ending up back in YYZ each night. That being said, I think there are a few overnights, just not a lot of them.

Hopefully they get a YUL base up and running for you at some point.

[DBC]

Hard to get a good feel with so few fins in rouge up and running. You will likely end up on the 319 since I expect the 767 to be filled by shrinking mainline positions, and all it currently does is turns to the south out of YYZ.

Once there are more of the 319s moved over, I expect there might be things like Carribean turns and sun destinations out of places like YUL/YOW/YYC/YWG. However, I would expect those would all have a deadhead to and from on the day before and after, sticking with a single crew base in YYZ.

Plan 16 Calendar days at work, with 9-11 flying days on the 319 as kind of a worst case scenario in the future, or 9-11 days of turns out of YYZ as best case.

All just my opinion of course.

[MB22]

Hard to get a good feel with so few fins in rouge up and running. You will likely end up on the 319 since I expect the 767 to be filled by shrinking mainline positions, and all it currently does is turns to the south out of YYZ.

Once there are more of the 319s moved over, I expect there might be things like Carribean turns and sun destinations out of places like YUL/YOW/YYC/YWG. However, I would expect those would all have a deadhead to and from on the day before and after, sticking with a single crew base in YYZ.

Plan 16 Calendar days at work, with 9-11 flying days on the 319 as kind of a worst case scenario in the future, or 9-11 days of turns out of YYZ as best case.

All just my opinion of course.

Do days with no flying (deadheads only) have any credit value at rouge?

[DBC]

Correct, no credit DH only days. Counts as calendar day at work only.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Correct, no credit DH only days. Counts as calendar day at work only.

You don't even get a min credit day for a DH??

[DBC]

"No credit for deadheading except as outlined under Pairing Credit Calculation. Pilots will be given positive space deadheads when traveling on a pairing."

Another gem in the contract

[rudder]

The bottom line with Rouge is that the pendulum swung too far. There are many provisions of the LCC LOU that make no sense (pay rates being the obvious. The rules are so out of whack that perhaps it would have been better simply to implement status pay at Rouge. Now you have EMB CA that can bid directly to 767 CA because the LCC LOU rules make it financially prohibitive for any WB FO with no CA service time to want to bid to Rouge CA).

ACPA and AC should sit down and fix this before it goes too far. There are certainly accommodations that can be made on both sides that will increase the likelihood of operational success of the Rouge operation provided that the correct pilots are in the correct seats.

Why does history always repeat itself at AC?

[bcflyer]

The bottom line with Rouge is that the pendulum swung too far. There are many provisions of the LCC LOU that make no sense (pay rates being the obvious. The rules are so out of whack that perhaps it would have been better simply to implement status pay at Rouge. Now you have EMB CA that can bid directly to 767 CA because the LCC LOU rules make it financially prohibitive for any WB FO with no CA service time to want to bid to Rouge CA).

ACPA and AC should sit down and fix this before it goes too far. There are certainly accommodations that can be made on both sides that will increase the likelihood of operational success of the Rouge operation provided that the correct pilots are in the correct seats.

Why does history always repeat itself at AC?

While I am definitely not a fan of Rouge I don't quite understand what your issue is with an EMB CA bidding to a 767 CA. It's been done at Mainline and so far I haven't seen any smoking craters. You seem to imply that you must be a WB FO before having the skill set to be a WB CA. (Most of the EMB CA I flew with had been WB FO earlier in their career anyway.) The bottom LCC 767 CA could hold an A320 CA seat at mainline. Are you saying that the 320 CA aren't qualified to be 767 CA either?

As for working things out with the company, what do you suggest? We already gave them a let to allow them to use mainline training CA's to ensure good training. They will not change the pay scale or the working conditions so what else would you change to entice the WB FO to bid it?

Rouge will not fail. They will bleed mainline dry to make it successful and soon we will all be working for Rouge rates and under their working conditions.....

[rudder]

While I am definitely not a fan of Rouge I don't quite understand what your issue is with an EMB CA bidding to a 767 CA. It's been done at Mainline and so far I haven't seen any smoking craters. You seem to imply that you must be a WB FO before having the skill set to be a WB CA. (Most of the EMB CA I flew with had been WB FO earlier in their career anyway.) The bottom LCC 767 CA could hold an A320 CA seat at mainline. Are you saying that the 320 CA aren't qualified to be 767 CA either?

As for working things out with the company, what do you suggest? We already gave them a let to allow them to use mainline training CA's to ensure good training. They will not change the pay scale or the working conditions so what else would you change to entice the WB FO to bid it?

Rouge will not fail. They will bleed mainline dry to make it successful and soon we will all be working for Rouge rates and under their working conditions.....

Not suggesting that there is a qualification issue. Just saying that once again AC has implemented a system that seems to alter what most would see as logical progression.

In any case, there are more flaws to the LCC LOU than just the pay rates and pay level rules. I still believe that a better LCC LOU arrangement could be reached if the parties took a look at the bigger picture. This LOU was the product of a flawed process and the only ones that can remedy that are the two parties that have to live with the result.

[bcflyer]

I agree completely. Unfortunately I think the company likes the way things are being run. After all they have us doing the same routes, in the same planes, for less money and using much more relaxed duty rules. I'd love to see things get changed, I just don't see what incentive AC has to change them...

[rudder]

I agree completely. Unfortunately I think the company likes the way things are being run. After all they have us doing the same routes, in the same planes, for less money and using much more relaxed duty rules. I'd love to see things get changed, I just don't see what incentive AC has to change them...

Rouge is a microeconomic solution to a macroeconomic problem. There is in fact quite a lot that the parties could do that spans the entire mainline operation and beyond that could significantly improve the competitiveness and liquidity of the corporation thereby improving job security and retirement solvency for all AC employees.

The question is whether enough time has passed since the train wreck and whether the parties are prepared to roll up their sleeves and do the work that is expected of them. CR will plough forward regardless but there are better and more far reaching solutions available than the ones that flowed from the arbitration and that needs to be more clearly examined, developed, and articulated.

[Fanblade]

Rudder,

The company has made it perfectly clear they could care less about any issues we have with Rouge.

Pay, normal progression, augment, duty days. They don't care.

For them this is about cheaper and maximum flexibility.

They are quite happy with the deal they have. The issues you point out are not even on their radar as something that impacts the bottom line. Unimportant.

Over the next year or so 100's will get flushed to Rouge.

[rudder]

Rudder,

The company has made it perfectly clear they could care less about any issues we have with Rouge.

Pay, normal progression, augment, duty days. They don't care.

For them this is about cheaper and maximum flexibility.

They are quite happy with the deal they have. The issues you point out are not even on their radar as something that impacts the bottom line. Unimportant.

Over the next year or so 100's will get flushed to Rouge.

I had posted during the negots debacle that a better deal could be had through negotiation than the alternative. And despite the unenthusiastic responses from the employer, the fact was that ACPA had the most to lose. We now know how that turned out.

ACPA still has the opportunity to stimulate a discussion because there are still areas where ACPA controls aspects of the ability of the employer to create an optimal strategic plan.

Perhaps it is too soon. Perhaps nerves are still raw. But the more time that passes the less influence that ACPA can have on the future.

[Inverted2]

Curious to know: If you get bumped down from AC to Rogue do you get to keep your payscale you had at AC? Get to carry anything else other than a seniority #?

[bcflyer]

Rudder I agree with you 100% and truly hope that it can be done. Unfortunately it appears that the powers that be in ACPA are intent to give away that leverage bit by bit.

[Fanblade]

I had posted during the negots debacle that a better deal could be had through negotiation than the alternative. And despite the unenthusiastic responses from the employer, the fact was that ACPA had the most to lose. We now know how that turned out.

ACPA still has the opportunity to stimulate a discussion because there are still areas where ACPA controls aspects of the ability of the employer to create an optimal strategic plan.

Perhaps it is too soon. Perhaps nerves are still raw. But the more time that passes the less influence that ACPA can have on the future.

Rudder,

Well timed......again.

There are no raw nerves. The attempts at further erosion have to stop. Any give requires quid.

Simple.

[rudder]

Rudder,

Well timed......again.

There are no raw nerves. The attempts at further erosion have to stop. Any give require quid.

Simple.

When the new CAR's duty and rest rules come in to effect in 2015, it will be like a small grenade thrown in to the charter/leisure world. Efficiencies will drop and both staffing and crew cycle costs will rise significantly. The Rouge 'advantage' will not look as attractive then but at least all of the operators in that segment of the industry will be forced onto a level playing field.

The LCC LOU needs to be modified. Perhaps the perspective should be with the pending CAR's changes in mind as well as removing barriers to orderly progression. Perhaps the bigger issue is the pending NB fleet renewal announcement and what size the AC NB operated fleet will be when the dust settles. Will the EMB190's be replaced or simply disposed of (as is permitted by the arbitration). What can ACPA do to affect a better outcome for its constituents?

There are many moving parts. AC can formulate a plan without ACPA concurrence. But it will not be the 'best' plan. Best means different things to different people. ACPA should focus on having the highest number of high quality jobs, not just the largest number of jobs. Of course, the devil is in the details.

My guess is that the employer already has a plan and is in the process of implementing it. But with several pieces as yet unannounced and perhaps still undetermined it would seem that there may be a window of opportunity to engage and alter the course.

[Fanblade]

Rudder,

It is not that I don't agree with you.

However the company has made it very clear. They do not care. Progression is our problem. They could care less about the seniority inversion developing. And it will get very large. Mainline is currently over staffed on the E190 with the loss of the 175. Soon the 320 will be overstaffed as 30 319's move to Rouge. A flush to Rouge has already begun on the last bid. You don't remove 45 aircraft without an enormous amount of pain. But hey I have been at AC for 3 years this fall. Looking like I will probably be a 319 skipper within a year. Good for me. Bad for the guy who waited his turn at mainline for it. The time to correct this is now before I am in that seat.

One might think if something bad happened AC might have to explain why its most experience pilots are FO's rather than CA. But no one will remember the nuance of how it developed. Airlines all over the world are doing it successfully.

LOU 74 is about maximum flexibility at low cost. Not one micro millimeter will be given back. Full stop. That is the position from the top. The corp is going to push forward hell or high water. Why? Cheaper labor. They don't care who sits in what seat. It is of ZERO importance to them.

There is absolutely no appetite on the part of the company to reopen LOU 74. In fact extreme resistance is a better discription.

This going to happen. It isn't fair in any regard. The negotiators of TA1 got sucked into believing the Rouge jobs were growth. They ase not. They are simply jobs removed from mainline and transfered to Rouge. AC is not giving this windfall back. The total pilot payroll drop is just too significant.

[rudder]

Rudder,

It is not that I don't agree with you.

However the company has made it very clear. They do not care. Progression is our problem. They could care less about the seniority inversion developing. And it will get very large. Mainline is currently over staffed on the E190 with the loss of the 175. Soon the 320 will be overstaffed as 30 319's move to Rouge. A flush to Rouge has already begun on the last bid. But hey I have been at AC for 3 years this fall. Looking like I will probably be a 319 skipper within a year. Good for me. Bad for the guy who waited his turn at mainline for it. The time to correct this is now before I am in that seat.

One might think if something bad happened AC might have to explain why its most experience pilots are FO's rather than CA. But no one will remember the nuance of how it developed.

LOU 74 is about maximum flexibility at low cost. Not one micro millimeter will be given back. Full stop. That is the position from the top. The corp is going to push forward hell or high water. Why? Cheaper labor. They don't care who sits in what seat. It is of ZERO importance to them.

There is absolutely no appetite on the part of the company to reopen LOU 74. In fact extreme resistance is a better discription.

Well, in the medium term the company has cash flow requirements to fund fleet renewal and other debt servicing that probably exceed current projections necessary to keep them above the requisite buffer based on other covenants that are in place. Unless they can pull a rabbit out of a hat then they will need some 'friends'.

What I am suggesting is to be proactive. But it is true that it takes two to have a real conversation. Plan A will save them 'x' amount of dollars. Come up with Plan B that will save 'x+++' dollars and you may garner a sympathetic ear. And this is not just about concessions - that is a non-starter. Think bigger.

AC has a chance to acquire operational flexibilities that other legacy carriers could only dream of. And the path goes right through ACPA. To me that would appear to be leverage.

[Fanblade]

This going to happen. It isn't fair in any regard. The negotiators of TA1 got sucked into believing the Rouge jobs were growth. They are not. They are simply jobs removed from mainline and transfered to Rouge. AC is not giving this windfall back. The total pilot payroll drop is just too significant.

Rudder,

Looks like I added this as you posted. For me it encapsulates why we will get nowhere with the company on this. It is very difficult for me to imagine a plan B that would fix the progression issue and match the total pilot payroll drop obtained in plan A. Remember at the end of the day they will have attained payroll savings at both AC and Rouge. Tenured AC pilots at the top pay rungs trapped in lower paying positions.

[rudder]

This going to happen. It isn't fair in any regard. The negotiators of TA1 got sucked into believing the Rouge jobs were growth. They are not. They are simply jobs removed from mainline and transfered to Rouge. AC is not giving this windfall back. The total pilot payroll drop is just too significant.

Rudder,

Looks like I added this as you posted. For me it encapsulates why we will get nowhere with the company on this.

You are correct. It is a numbers game. But there are even bigger numbers that could be put in play than pilot payroll. These are numbers that would actually have a larger and more positive effect on AC liquidity than status quo. And that is why there is an opportunity to pursue a much broader conversation than Rouge.

[Fanblade]

This going to happen. It isn't fair in any regard. The negotiators of TA1 got sucked into believing the Rouge jobs were growth. They are not. They are simply jobs removed from mainline and transfered to Rouge. AC is not giving this windfall back. The total pilot payroll drop is just too significant.

Rudder,

Looks like I added this as you posted. For me it encapsulates why we will get nowhere with the company on this.

You are correct. It is a numbers game. But there are even bigger numbers that could be put in play than pilot payroll. These are numbers that would actually have a larger and more positive effect on AC liquidity than status quo. And that is why there is an opportunity to pursue a much broader conversation than Rouge.

Okay I'll bite. What?

[rudder]

Okay I'll bite. What?

Sorry. Anything more would not really amount to much more than idle speculation.

But it suffice to say that the opportunities that were forfeit during the restructuring period in 2003/2004 could well be revisited as circumstances have made these type of initiatives much more attractive given the current status of AC and its partners, the results of the ACPA contract arbitration, the evolution of the marketplace in North America, and the competitive landscape.

AC wants to find ways to generate more positive cash flow. And there are ways other than clubbing labour like a baby harp seal.

[Fanblade]

Rudder,

The TA1 negotiators gave AC all the big ticket items they asked for in exchange for growth and Quid in other areas.

During FOS AC removed all the quid from TA1 giving them the big ticket items for free. Post FOS there is no growth.

You will need to come up with something of substance to make what you are saying more than some nice sound bites and catch phrases.

I think AC has what it wants. That ACPA has virtually zero leverage to seek any changes. Are there issues? Of course there are. But they are small potatoes in comparison to the leverage that would be needed to get LOU 74 reopen.

So for me to buy into your point you will have to show me where this supposed leverage is. I don't see it. I see exactly the opposite.