UPS A-300 crash - Birmingham Alabama

[EA757]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08/14 ... -faa-says/

[CFR]

If I had seen the picture without the article I'd have guessed the crew survived based on the condition the flight deck seems to be in.

[EA757]

Yes, it does look survivable, unless something real heavy made
it's way into the flight deck.

[EA757]

Another pic.

Different angle.
http://photos.al.com/birmingham-news/20 ... ash_5.html

[GRK]

Sadly no...2 dead...that flight deck will have a ceiling that collapsed as well as a floor that would have been pushed up...photo's on another website show an impact point that is deep and long...high rate of descent reported with low(er) ceilings and not great vis...time will tell what happened but not a great day for UPS.

[jeta1]

Hard to see another large cargo go down, reminds me of the recent 747 in Afghanistan. The "witnesses" as per the National Post report are a tough call for investigators... Very difficult to trust or validate what they think they saw or heard.

[PositiveRate27]

Terrible news...

I have serious doubts about the eye witness reports, particularly the report that the aircraft was on fire before it struck the ground. If it was indeed poor vis at the time of the crash it's highly likely that the eye witness mistook the landing lights glowing through all the moisture as fire...

Sad day for UPS, and my thoughts are with the flight crew's families.

[CFR]

I remember a quote from one of my investigators courses. "In virtually every plane crash some eyewitnesses have seen the plane on fire, even for aircraft that have run out of fuel!" Eyewitness testimony is considered suspect unless it is independently corroborated by a separate witness(s) or hard evidence. We used to do a number of exercises with staged events and then ask observers what they saw. It was amazing the varying descriptions the different observers had.

[Its What I do]

"high rate of descent reported with low(er) ceilings and not great vis...time will tell what happened but not a great day for UPS."

the weather was fine

Weather reported at the time of the accident (04:50 local time, 09:50 UTC):
KBHM 140953Z 34004KT 10SM FEW011 BKN035 OVC075 23/22 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP141 T02330222

[flyinthebug]

"high rate of descent reported with low(er) ceilings and not great vis...time will tell what happened but not a great day for UPS."

the weather was fine

Weather reported at the time of the accident (04:50 local time, 09:50 UTC):
KBHM 140953Z 34004KT 10SM FEW011 BKN035 OVC075 23/22 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP141 T02330222

I thought the same as you, but I did hear in a news report that a fog bank had just moved in 5-10 mins prior to approach, but still with legal vis and ceilings. If you look at the backdrop of some of the photos taken just an hour after the crash (from OPs link), you`ll note lower ceilings and only reasonable vis with fog in the background. The pics taken later in the day show a SKC background.

The following is part of the OP`s article...

Conditions in the area were rainy with low clouds Wednesday morning. Smoke was still rising from the scene almost three hours after the crash. A piece of the plane’s fuselage lay near some blackened ground.

My sincere condolences to the family and friends of the crew. As always, its tragic when we lose one and don't have any answers as to why.

Fly safe all.

[Troubleshot]

Crispy...

[GyvAir]

I presume those are recorders they are holding? It will be a testament to the quality of the construction if they get useable data from them.

[EA757]

Gyvair,

This article indicates that they have been located,
with a similar pic.

So quite possibly them...

http://whnt.com/2013/08/15/ntsb-finds-b ... -wreckage/

[Troubleshot]

Sorry should have said in the first post. It is the recorders, I got the pic's from the NTSB's Twitter page.

[Gino Under]

This accident could be the result of "black hole" spatial disorientation due to a visual turn to final while descending which resulted in CFIT.
PLUS, was this another visual approach clearance onto a non-instrument approach runway?
The 600 could easily use FPV on a non precision approach if ATC would stop using the visual approach clearance for "heavies" and issue a proper instrument approach clearance at 5:00 am.

All speculation on my part. Anyone know what's available on Rwy 18?

[EA757]

http://skyvector.com/airport/BHM/Birmin ... al-Airport

[Pratt X 3]

LOC (no GS) and RNAV (GPS) approaches available for 18.

[GyvAir]

I didn't word my post very well. Knew they were the recorders.. was thinking more "I presume that's what's left of the recorders after being barbecued for a few hours?"

[SeptRepair]

This accident could be the result of "black hole" spatial disorientation due to a visual turn to final while descending which resulted in CFIT.
PLUS, was this another visual approach clearance onto a non-instrument approach runway?
The 600 could easily use FPV on a non precision approach if ATC would stop using the visual approach clearance for "heavies" and issue a proper instrument approach clearance at 5:00 am.

All speculation on my part. Anyone know what's available on Rwy 18?

You clearly forgot to add variable tailwinds to your analysis.

[Jack In The Box]

This crash is really bothering me. It's way too early to speculate but IF pilot fatigue was a factor, I hope the exemption that all cargo airlines in the US got for pilot rest rules will be lifted.

I too thought the crash was survivable when I saw the initial pictures. Then I saw this...



I don't know why this one is hitting so close to home but it is. God-speed and tailwinds to the crew.

[jpilot77]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... veals.html

[shimmydampner]

That forces pilots to make key judgments about altitude while aiming a descending aircraft at a runway

Oh the horror!

[Gino Under]

This accident is likely to raise a few issues when investigators finish their first look analysis of the evidence in the coming weeks.
My guess is that we'll see more commentary on degraded manual flying skills and how pilots need more practice with it than they're presently getting. Although the time and place for this practice is likely another debate within the debate.
I also suspect the use of the visual approach clearance for IFR aircraft, especially jet transports will be very closely scrutinized, if not eliminated. IFR flights will be kept on IFR clearances including an instrument approach clearance at destination.
Even though CFIT accident stats are low, accidents like this shouldn't still be happening. UPS should never have lost experienced crew this way.

Capt. Sumwalt is a perfect lead investigator for this accident as he is a former A310/A300 pilot with lots of experience.

Gino Under

[boeingboy]

"In their fourth and last press conference on Aug 17th the NTSB reported, the flight data recorder data have been validated. First results suggests the flight control inputs and flight control surface movements correlate, the engine parameters were normal. The flight data recorder stopped a few seconds prior to the cockpit voice recorder. The autopilot was engaged until the end of flight data recording end, the speed was about 140 KIAS as selected by the autoflight system consistent with the expected approach speed. The flight data recorder also confirmed the Sinkrate GPWS alerts. A checkflight by FAA on the PAPI system confirmed the PAPIs were indicating correctly to 1/100th of a degree. The aircraft had been updated to comply with all service bulletins and airworthiness directives."



Weird - everything seems to be working.........

[reality check]

Weird - everything seems to be working.........

Weird - just like Asiana..........

Makes one wonder what the posts on AvKorea read like right now.