If you are a single or childless AME I want your opinion

[CanMaintGrad]

Do night shifts bother you? What about being laid off? Is it such a big deal if you don't have a family to feed? Do any of you find it difficult to live comfortably on a AME wage?

[13820]

It has nothing to do with being single or childless.
A comfortable wage now will not do you much good down the road should your lifestyle change. Get out now if you can.
Night shifts bother everyone.
They screw up your life.

Congrats on graduating.

[CanMaintGrad]

Could you elaborate as to how night shifts screw up you life as a single person with no kids? I have read a lot of the arguments for it but most of them have to do with never being home for the family.
I would also like to add that the question has nothing to do with lifestyle choice for medical reasons.

[fixnfly]

Even as a single childless AME night shifts can be difficult to have a social life. It depends on your schedule too whether you rotate through the weekends. You really have to plan your social life around your work schedule. You will likely not be able to be apart of any groups that have scheduled events in the evening for example sports teams or clubs that meet often. You will usually end up not being able to attend most of the events unless they are in the afternoon. Anything in the morning is usually difficult to attend because of working the night before (for example Church). You will find that you will usually be able to only hangout with your friends on the weekends that you have off because most people work a 9-5 job monday to friday and are likely not able to go out drinking on a Tuesday night. You will have to work half the holidays in a year such as Christmas Eve or Christmas day and missing those times with your family is tough.

Most AME's lead a solitary life and do things like off roading, jogging, painting or having other personal hobbies. One of the main benefits to working a rotating night shift job is you will have a nice chunk of days off than someone who works a Mon-Fri job. And you usually get to avoid rush hour traffic. Other than that in my opinion it does not offset the difficulties of working night shift.

Bottomline in my opinion is if you have the opportunity to accept a mon-friday day job or a rotating night shift job (8 on 6 off 6 on 8 off or something similiar) for a couple dollars more then I would definitely recommend the day job. Again it depends on your personal preference depending on many factors such as your social life or other specific circumstances in your situation (pay, sched, etc). I can't imagine how difficult it must be to work a night shift with a family though.

As for your other questions being laid off really depends on your workplace and situation. Living comfortably on an AME wage again depends on where you live. But overall the average pay in this industry has been increasing. I encourage you to search this maintenance forum as there are several topics discussing AME pay and in my opinion the AME shortage that will inevitably drive up the average AME payscale.

[CanMaintGrad]

Thanks for the info Fixnfly, I am looking forward to having time to spend on hobbies and projects. What kinda painting are you doing? I do some airbrush pieces in my time off but its a hobby I could really use more time to work on. Thanks for the response, I appreciate the opinion.

[robertw]

I worked night shift my first job out of AME school. 6:00 pm to 4:00 am. 8 on 6 off. It really was not good for me. Social life suffered greatly as all my friends / family did not work days. The people I hung out with were work buddies on the same shift as me. Nothing wrong with that I suppose, but seeing the same people all day, every day can get monotonous.

When it came to my 6 days off, I'd try to reset my internal clock and become a daytime creature again. It would usually take about 3 days to do so and by the time I got accustomed to being awake in the day again, it was time to get back on my night schedule. I found that I could never get enough sleep and felt physically sick (mostly mildly nauseated) after working nights for a couple of months.

Loneliness and depression can very easily set in. It did with me. I worked at that job for year and then found another job (daytime!) 3 provinces away. Best job move I ever made. I swore that I'd never work nights again unless ABSOLUTELY necessary and I would advise caution to anyone who asks what it's like to work nights. It wasn't for me.

[flatface]

Deleted

[dashx]

Do night shifts bother you?

Yes in the long term. No in the short term. And i do know night shift AME's that have family and social lives.

What about being laid off? Is it such a big deal if you don't have a family to feed?

Do these go together? Ask your parents. They should have the answers you need. I'm sure they've lived through more than one recession.

Do any of you find it difficult to live comfortably on a AME wage?

When it stopped being comfortable I asked for a raise. Which I got. I did this several times until I got enough experience to get a better job. Which (of course) paid more. I still drive used cars. And carry a line of credit. And have a family. And they have a social life. That comfortable enough for you?

[nine sixteenths]

I find working on night shifts harder because of a few reasons.

One is that my neighbours tend to be pretty noisy during the days, lots of quads and bikes, especially on weekends. This makes it harder to sleep during the day

Also, I found it more difficult to sleep durin the days during summer because of the temperature. Black out curtains fixed the light issue, but when I get too warm I have a hard time staying asleep.

I have found there seems to be less distractions on night shifts, phones don't ring, etc. If we stayed busy, we were pretty productive, and didn't mind the shift. If we were not busy on the shift I didn't like it, I found everyone on the shift was tired and sluggish.

[Nightshiftzombie]

I've been working nights for about 15 years. No wife, no kids. I really like it.

The pluses- No bosses hanging around watching you work. As long as the plane flys in the morning, no one gives a shit if you took a half hour for coffee instead of 15. No one cares if the radio is turned up loud. No hassles over wearing uniforms, parking spaces, other "daytime bullshit".

- The phone doesn't ring. I find it quite stressful trying to deal with a bunch of stuff all at once. (You are trying to get an inspection done and at the same time you have a pilot on the phone trying to describe a funny noise he heard.)

- Traffic. If you are in a city you commute is usually against traffic.

- Generally you get your time off in bigger blocks. (4-3, 7-7, 21-21 ect.) I like to travel so I like this, not everyone's cup of tea though.

The minuses - If your shifts are short, trying to flip back and forth from nights to days on your time off is murder. For most people it isn't the nights that do them in it's the switching back and forth.

- It will make you crazy. The hundreds of F*ed up conversations that you end up having in a shop full of sleep deprived guys will start to warp you. I have never run across a woman working graveyards (it would probably help) so things tend to get twisted right off the bat and then go downhill from there. Eventually you start slipping and use "Night speak" in the daytime, most day people don't see the humour in (I won't give examples as I don't wish to be hunted down by a Human Rights Tribunal, The International Criminal Court or Oprah.)

- You do tend to hang out with the same guys you work with. (This is another reason I like the longer stretches of time off.)

- It tends to be real tough to do appointments during the day. (Doctor, Dentist, ect.) Most bosses understand if Dayshift Darryl has to duck out for two hours to go to the dentist, but Ive never had much luck with asking to come in a few hours late because I had to get up at one o`clock in the afternoon to go to the dentist.

[CanMaintGrad]

Hey Nightshiftzombie
Thanks for the reply I love to travel too. I do a lot of hiking, and paddling and can't wait to get out to some great international destinations. I would really enjoy hearing about some of your travels and more about your career if you are interested in sharing.

If you prefer to pm me feel free, I appreciate your time.

[CanMaintGrad]

Hey dashx
Since your not single or without children, I'm not sure why you answered. The question had qualifiers for a reason but, alright.
See i'm trying to get opinions from people who are ahead of me in life but maybe following a similar path. This site is an excellent gathering place for AMEs and even though I appreciate my parents opinion they are not single, they have children, and are not AMEs, or associated with the aviation industry. So that's a pool of opinions for another day.
I apologize if I offended you. I wanted to use the word comfortable for a reason, as it has a personal meaning to everyone. I'm interested in opinions from a particular group and comfort will be different for everyone, which gives me a chance to communicate with unique individuals. I did not mean it as a challenge at all. I would never presume if someone else's life could be comfortable for me however, people living a similar life to the one I plan could provide useful insights or ideas or just the chance to hear some good stories.

[GyvAir]

Statistically speaking, dashx likely once held single, no kids status. Likely held that status and worked night shifts at the same time. Which, having been through that stage, would give him the benefit of hindsight and thus is probably fairly well qualified to give a bit of a cost/benefit analysis to the lifestyle.

My opinion on shift work/night shifts: they're hard on you, no matter your family situation. It's a rare person that actually makes very good use of the daytime hours that they're not at work. Rare too, are the people that get much done other than mastering some new game on xbox on their blocks of days off.
If I have to do it, I prefer to get on a shift and stay on it for at least a month at a time as I find it harder to constantly change shifts than to adapt to one non-optimal one. Just google "night shift problems or pros and cons" and you'll see all the arguments.

The implications of a layoff should theoretically be less for a single, no kids person, so long as you manage to keep debt free or have a cushion of some kind. Get yourself a big car loan, a mortgage, run up your line of credit, etc. and a layoff is still going to be plenty stressful.
A low wage sucks whether you're single or coupled. Can be even worse if you're single, as a partner often comes with an additional family income to contribute to fixed living expenses (two can live as cheaply as one theory); not to mention acting as a the cushion in the event of one of you getting the lay off notice.

[CanMaintGrad]

Gyvair
Thanks for the post, do you think its because some AMEs are so exhausted that vegging out with some xbox is all they can manage? I have never been that type of guy and I'm hoping most people do that because that's just what so many people do now. I'm in college and its tough enough now to drag people away from their screens for a hike or a few days of camping.
I try not to live outside my means and stay away from debt as much as I can. I do have to many hobbies though I will have to watch that closely. Any other tips for new guys wanting to avoid the stressful layoff? I always try and have enough saved that I can travel anywhere in Canada. I'm hoping with hard work and some skills that will help me get back to work within a reasonable time.

[GyvAir]

My guess is that it is partly Xbox culture to blame or TV culture or whatever screen one is drawn to. However, I think the real trap many people fall into starts with exhaustion as you say. Miss your sleep for whatever reason for a day; have a night shift or two run long due to nasty snags until you’re beat, and it can be pretty hard to summon the energy and willpower to get out of the house when you wake up. Instead you end up just putting a movie/game on or seeing what’s on TV. Do that for a day or two and you’re almost certainly more tired than if you had gone out for some exercise. Commence snowball effect and into the rut you go. (How’s that for mixing metaphors?)

You already know what to do to avoid the layoff: Be one of the best guys on the floor. Be really good at something and be competent at several things. Learn new things every chance you get. Jump on course opportunities. Get along with people. Don’t be afraid to get your hands dirty. Don’t have the idea that there are jobs in the hangar that are beneath you. Keep busy, even if it means just cleaning up the hangar. Funny thing too.. it seems the more one is willing to jump on the lower jobs and get them done, the less they are expected to and the quicker they are moved on to more interesting/challenging tasks. Anyways, what I was starting to say is that if you’re hard working and have some valuable and diverse skills you’ll avoid the cut in the first place, come layoff time. And if you don't, you'll have the references and contacts to get you your next job.

[johnkruk]

Being good at what you do won't necessarily save you from layoff depending on where you work. The bigger the place you work the more you are just a number and when your number is up you're done! A lot depends on luck, getting into the right place at the right time. It does help to get as many courses as possible for you're current job and good resume material for future employment. No matter where you work in aviation never be surprised by a layoff!!!!

[GyvAir]

Luck, environment and circumstance are always going to affect layoff situations and of course you can't really control those factors. Well.. you can choose to some extent where you work. And as far as luck goes, there's a saying often quoted by other posters on this site: "The harder I work, the luckier I get"

[13820]

Could you elaborate as to how night shifts screw up you life as a single person with no kids?

Well, here is the deal.
Night shift screws up your life! PERIOD.
Kids or not. Then if you think being single and having all those days off is cool, and your life changes you are now stuck in a job that will not accommodate your new lifestyle. If you choose a job that leaves you no choice later for time off with the family you are screwed.

Good luck whatever you choose. I would do it differently next time given the choice.

[Troubleshot]

Night shifts are brutal...very few individuals can sustain it for a long periods. When I first started night shift I kinda liked it to be honest, no management around, tunes playing in the hangar, long coffee breaks, etc...but after like 4 years of it I start to feel generally awful (I was 23 at the time). I had heartburn somethin' awful all the time, I had headaches a lot, and just felt fatigued.

As others have stated, I would try and get back into a "day routine" on my days off and I think it just made it worse. Google "Circadian Rhythms" and read how disrupting it can have significant impacts on your health.

I think the adventurous theme you are looking for might be cool, however do a lot of research on this. You may sign-up for the worse job you will ever have. There are lots of AMO/MRO outfits that have Canadian registered aircraft operating overseas on contracts but I have heard of few that should be avoided at all costs. Not an expert on the overseas thing but you may have difficultly landing a gig like as your first job. Most of the gravy gigs are occupied by well experienced AME's that have a ton training and experience.

Good Luck

[conehead]

CanMaintGrad; judging from your posts, you seem wise beyond your years. I don't meet the qualifiers to answer your questions, but I would like to offer this comment; the human animal is just another mammal, and NOT a nocturnal one. We are not like the racoon. We need to be awake in the daylight hours, and asleep at night. When we disturb this natural cycle in the long term, the organism will suffer.

[dashx]

CMG.

Gyvair is correct.

I started out as a single apprentice in aviation. I started with night shifts. I had no choice as it was the only job I could get given the current economic conditions of that time. I worked two jobs back then. When the airline went under I kept working the second (non aviation) job until the economy picked up and I was able to get back into aviation full time. Several of the AME's I worked with at that time quit aviation (and over twenty years later are still out of it). My salary was low until I got my license. Only comfortable because of the second job. During this time I got married so from here on out you should not read any further.........

See i'm trying to get opinions from people who are ahead of me in life but maybe following a similar path

BTW did you ever think I might be divorced or separated? After all divorced is equal to being single is it not? Separated is the next to divorced. And childless might mean the kids are not living with you (yes yes the english hounds will hang me by equating childless with children living with the other parent).

-X.

[CanMaintGrad]

dashx
Single, separated, and divorced do not share a common definition and they defiantly aren't the same. Are you really trying to claim that as a divorced/separated guy your life is the same as a single guys? Or that even if your kids don't live with you, you shouldn't care for and support them? rhetorical questions. These relationships exist and that shapes your life in a major way. Each lifestyle has many positives and negatives and to claim they are equal is to ignore both the good and the bad of life.
I think it was Louis c.k. who said his life changed immensely when he got married, couldn't just leave anymore, now he needed a lawyer. When he had kids it changed because he couldn't die anymore. He has responsibility and little people to take care of.
Why do you say you had no choice? I would defiantly want to avoid situations where all choice is removed, what happened? When the airline went under did you look for work somewhere else in Canada? It sounds like you pretty much stayed in the same area and waited for the economy to recover. Do you live in an area that doesn't suffer as much from the economic downturn? Were you tied to the area for some reason? It's defiantly felt less in Alberta than out east but it seems so important to focus on continuing to develop skills when just starting out as an AME, regardless it must have been tough being away from the industry.

[CanMaintGrad]

Troubleshot
The health issues I have read about are the thing that worries me the most and I was really expecting to hear more about the issue when I started this thread. I have read all about tricking the circadian rhythm but haven't tried to yet. Did you try and fool your body into thinking it was daytime? I have read about using lights that simulate sunlight and a dark place to sleep, also the importance of forcing yourself to go to sleep and eat on a schedule. Did you find anything helped with the health effects?
I don't think I'll get that dream job for a while yet, gotta pay my dues first and get good at something. My dream for now would probably be working in a camp somewhere up north. Properly in the middle of nowhere but I might end up with a terrible job instead. I think everyone has to put the work in to get where you want to be, I'll work hard even if I hate the job because that's what men do.

[dashx]

Single, separated, and divorced do not share a common definition and they defiantly aren't the same. Are you really trying to claim that as a divorced/separated guy your life is the same as a single guys? .

Yes. Yes I am. "Defiantly" so. My answer my not be definitive but I will definitely stick with my flawed argument.

Merriam-Webster defines single as "not married or not having a serious romantic relationship with someone"

Which could be interpreted (where is my lawyer?) that as a divorced/separated guy you could be living the life of a single guy.

It's only the gov't (and insurance companies) that separate the single, divorced, separated, and widowed people out (we want to see your papers please) for tax and statistical purposes.


Do you have a significant other? Are you in a serious romantic relationship? Or are you a completely free (using that word with caution now) single guy? And would having a significant other (can't use girlfriend/boyfriend anymore) limit you in looking a position (somewhere adventurous)?

And what if you are single and have children (or a child)? Perhaps you weren't in a serious romantic relationship and suddenly there is a child? I know of one AME like that. Single, out on the road, goes back home to see the kid (mom is in a relationship with another guy), then back on the road, living the adventurous life. All over the world (currently in Canada)

would defiantly want to avoid situations where all choice is removed, what happened? When the airline went under did you look for work somewhere else in Canada?

Yes. Yes I did. But being an apprentice it was difficult (actually impossible) to get a job at that time in the economy. In those days it was the post office and wait and telephone game when it came to resumes. Or who you knew. Which I didn't. And I had friends leave the aviation industry at that time. Licensed and experienced AME's (single....) could not get work. My situation was different and I stuck it out in the non aviation job (as I mentioned) until the economy improved.

Were you tied to the area for some reason? .

Family. I was cheap. I was lazy. I wasn't adventurous. I was scared. I was young. Inexperienced. Didn't have a mentor (in aviation). Take your pick.

Louis C.K.?

Here's Doug Stanhope (probably totally off topic) talking about children. Just for amusement. Nothing else..........





Thank you for reading further...........