pop-up clearances

[photofly]

What's NAVCANADA's official position on providing pop-up clearances to aircraft in the air VFR? Will you or won't you?

[kevenv]

What's NAVCANADA's official position on providing pop-up clearances to aircraft in the air VFR? Will you or won't you?

There is no such thing as a policy, official or otherwise, for or against it. It's not even an issue that I have ever heard people worry about. If I have the time, and workload permitting, I'll issue you whatever you want. The onus is on you if required to contact the FIC and change your flight plan over to IFR.

[photofly]

Supplementary question:

If an aircraft on an Instrument clearance goes NORDO, how does the ATC officer get the details of the filed alternate? From what I understand that information isn't initially available to ATC.

[cyeg66]

Then you as a pilot, picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue...

[kevenv]

Supplementary question:

If an aircraft on an Instrument clearance goes NORDO, how does the ATC officer get the details of the filed alternate? From what I understand that information isn't initially available to ATC.

You're correct, we don't have immediate access to that info. A quick call to our flight planning dept and they could pull up your filed flight plan for us and give us whatever we need.

[old_man]

There is no such thing as a policy, official or otherwise, for or against it. It's not even an issue that I have ever heard people worry about. If I have the time, and workload permitting, I'll issue you whatever you want. The onus is on you if required to contact the FIC and change your flight plan over to IFR.

I have gotten a 'pop up' clearance a lot of times. Never have I been turned down. ATC has always been great to me.

I have, however, gotten slightly burned by forgetting to contact FIC to make changes to my flight plan.....I will not make that mistake twice.

[Big Pistons Forever]

. The onus is on you if required to contact the FIC and change your flight plan over to IFR.

Which seems to me to be a round about way to say "we do not want to issue you a pop up IFR clearance"

[ahramin]

BPF the point is that issuing the pop-up IFR clearance does not change your flight plan and the controller can't do it for you. Hence the reminder to change your flight plan when you get a chance.

I've only needed the pop-up a couple times but both went smooth.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There is no such thing as a policy, official or otherwise, for or against it. It's not even an issue that I have ever heard people worry about. If I have the time, and workload permitting, I'll issue you whatever you want. The onus is on you if required to contact the FIC and change your flight plan over to IFR.

I have gotten a 'pop up' clearance a lot of times. Never have I been turned down. ATC has always been great to me.

I have, however, gotten slightly burned by forgetting to contact FIC to make changes to my flight plan.....I will not make that mistake twice.

I wonder if the region has anything to do with it. I have to say the Pacific region is not very helpful. They will not even usually give you a transponder code so you can enter the Vic Van TCA on a VFR transit. Instead you have to go get one from Pacific radio. As for an actual Pop Up IFR well good luck with that

[Big Pistons Forever]

BPF the point is that issuing the pop-up IFR clearance does not change your flight plan and the controller can't do it for you. Hence the reminder to change your flight plan when you get a chance.

I've only needed the pop-up a couple times but both went smooth.

How does it go again. Is it "hit the send key and then read the quote" or "read the quote and then hit the send key", sometimes I have trouble with that.

[ahramin]

BPF I know what you mean about the region . YVR Terminal suffers badly from poor managers and chronic staff shortages. However in my experience the day to day line guys have been good and the one time I got a pop-up from them it was handled by the book. I wouldn't be shy about asking for it if you need it.

[ahramin]

How does it go again. Is it "hit the send key and then read the quote" or "read the quote and then hit the send key", sometimes I have trouble with that.

Uh ... did I miss something?

[kevenv]

. The onus is on you if required to contact the FIC and change your flight plan over to IFR.

Which seems to me to be a round about way to say "we do not want to issue you a pop up IFR clearance"

You conveniently cut out the part where I said I will give you whatever you want. There is no round about way in my statement. Ask and you will get it. If I am busy you may have to maintain VFR till I get around to you.

I wonder if the region has anything to do with it. I have to say the Pacific region is not very helpful. They will not even usually give you a transponder code so you can enter the Vic Van TCA on a VFR transit. Instead you have to go get one from Pacific radio. As for an actual Pop Up IFR well good luck with that

VFR transponder codes and VFR transit issues were not part of the OP's question. They have nothing at all to do with receiving a pop up IFR clx. I have never heard of anyone where I work refusing to issue one and I would be gob smacked to hear that a controller anywhere else refused to issue one for no good reason. If you want to do a pop up IFR approach in VFR wx, you may have to wait. If you are encountering or are about to encounter IFR wx conditions you will get a clx immediately. Issuing them really isn't that difficult for us.

[Big Pistons Forever]

How does it go again. Is it "hit the send key and then read the quote" or "read the quote and then hit the send key", sometimes I have trouble with that.

Uh ... did I miss something?

When I re read the quote I realized that he was talking about the requirement to call the appropriate radio so that they don't think you are still VFR and keep SAR alerting going. This of course has nothing to do with a pop up IFR clearance which is where center or terminal issues you an IFR clearance even though you have not put an IFR flight plan into the system., something I would have recognized if I had properly read the quote before hitting the send key

[Big Pistons Forever]

. The onus is on you if required to contact the FIC and change your flight plan over to IFR.

Which seems to me to be a round about way to say "we do not want to issue you a pop up IFR clearance"

You conveniently cut out the part where I said I will give you whatever you want. There is no round about way in my statement. Ask and you will get it. If I am busy you may have to maintain VFR till I get around to you.

I wonder if the region has anything to do with it. I have to say the Pacific region is not very helpful. They will not even usually give you a transponder code so you can enter the Vic Van TCA on a VFR transit. Instead you have to go get one from Pacific radio. As for an actual Pop Up IFR well good luck with that

VFR transponder codes and VFR transit issues were not part of the OP's question. They have nothing at all to do with receiving a pop up IFR clx. I have never heard of anyone where I work refusing to issue one and I would be gob smacked to hear that a controller anywhere else refused to issue one for no good reason. If you want to do a pop up IFR approach in VFR wx, you may have to wait. If you are encountering or are about to encounter IFR wx conditions you will get a clx immediately. Issuing them really isn't that difficult for us.

All I can go by is my personal experience. The last 2 times I asked for a pop up (I was in VFR conditions) I was told to air file with Pacific Radio. Getting a code to transit the Vic/Van airspace is basically a VFR pop up. It used to be routine, you call up with a position report, they give you a code and away you go......well not anymore.

Maybe I am a bit crabby because on my last IFR approach into YYJ I asked for vectors after the DTW and the controllers response in a very whiny aggrieved tone was "why can't you close the approach yourself" I was really tempted to reply "Gee sorry for making you actually do your job"

After just coming back from 2.5 months of flying in the US, Canadian ATC is a bit of a rude shock

[cyeg66]

After just coming back from 2.5 months of flying in the US, Canadian ATC is a bit of a rude shock

Brush=very wide. One bad apple spoils the whole bunch.... We've, admittedly, got a a couple of those whiny bitches.

[Big Pistons Forever]

After just coming back from 2.5 months of flying in the US, Canadian ATC is a bit of a rude shock

Brush=very wide. One bad apple spoils the whole bunch.... We've, admittedly, got a a couple of those whiny bitches.

True and I know the majority of you guys go the extra mile to make it work, it is just too bad the system makes your job so difficult.....

[kevenv]

After just coming back from 2.5 months of flying in the US, Canadian ATC is a bit of a rude shock

Brush=very wide. One bad apple spoils the whole bunch.... We've, admittedly, got a a couple of those whiny bitches.

True and I know the majority of you guys go the extra mile to make it work, it is just too bad the system makes your job so difficult.....

All I can suggest is that you call the shift manager and complain if you feel you aren't getting the service that you think you should. I know that where I work, those sorts of calls are taken very seriously and investigated promptly. If I do or don't do something that someone complains about, I better have a very good reason for having done it.

[16SidedOffice]

BPF, the 25 miles between Victoria and the Mainland shouldn't be cause to say the Pacific Region has been less than helpful regarding pop up clearances. The only time's I've heard of someone not getting a pop-up IFR with YVR CTR was due to their proximity to other IFR aircraft or active IFR protected airspace.

[Big Pistons Forever]

BPF, the 25 miles between Victoria and the Mainland shouldn't be cause to say the Pacific Region has been less than helpful regarding pop up clearances. The only time's I've heard of someone not getting a pop-up IFR with YVR CTR was due to their proximity to other IFR aircraft or active IFR protected airspace.

One was in the vicinity of Nanoose Bay, North bound; the second was near Hope, East bound. In both cases from the tone of voice I got the distinct impression that the controller just had no interest in helping me and took the easy out by fobbing me off on Pacific Radio.

I want to be clear that the vast majority of my interactions with Canadian ATC have been positive. However I stand by my assertion that as a general rule, ATC in the US is more flexible and helpful then in Canada. I also do not think I am the only one who has this opinion....

[16SidedOffice]

One was in the vacinity of Nanoose bay North bound, the second was near Hope East bound. In both cases from the tone of voice I got the distinct impression that the controller just had no interest in helpng me and took the easy out by fobbing me off on Pacific Radio.

I wouldn't say fobbing you off is an easy way out as the ad-hoc IFR clearance they'd give you is going to be the same as when they get data on you from IFR flightplanning, but there's generally no reason why ATC can't simply issue you an IFR clearance to get you on your way. I've issued ad-hoc clearances more times than I can think of, and very rarely was there any delays to issuing it. The request on it's own generally means you need it to avoid bad things from happening.

[Big Pistons Forever]

In both cases I did not immediately need an IFR clearance, it was to deal with weather a bit farther up the road. All I can say is I asked for a pop up and did not get it, so my personal experience has been that I am Oh and two on my last two pop ups requests.

If I had actually needed an IFR right then and there I would have forced the issue.

[Rookie50]

BPF, the 25 miles between Victoria and the Mainland shouldn't be cause to say the Pacific Region has been less than helpful regarding pop up clearances. The only time's I've heard of someone not getting a pop-up IFR with YVR CTR was due to their proximity to other IFR aircraft or active IFR protected airspace.

One was in the vicinity of Nanoose Bay, North bound; the second was near Hope, East bound. In both cases from the tone of voice I got the distinct impression that the controller just had no interest in helping me and took the easy out by fobbing me off on Pacific Radio.

I want to be clear that the vast majority of my interactions with Canadian ATC have been positive. However I stand by my assertion that as a general rule, ATC in the US is more flexible and helpful then in Canada. I also do not think I am the only one who has this opinion....

You are not. I personally have been less than pleased on 2 occasions with Ottawa Terminal. I get annoyed when there is literally no traffic compared to a center like Toronto or Vancouver -- and yyz has usually been very good-- and there is not a helpful approach.

Once I had a very dark night takeoff ( although vmc ), from an uncontrolled AP, and I was refused my IFR clearance from the ground, had to get it airborne. Day, I could understand this vfr. Night, a long cc over unpopulated terrain, I file IFR. What's the issue? Very light traffic.

Another, same terminal, approaching the same U/C airport in IMC, (which had no approach), VMC underneath me so a vfr approach was possible once cleared low enough, instead of vectors for a lower altitude and transition for a vfr approach, and knowing I was unfamiliar, (with the area) ATC clears me for an approach to a Different nearby airport, without any advance warning, right on top of the IAF!

Apparently this is the local norm-- no one told me of course.

I did not have this loaded -- while trying to load it ATC asks me to confirm my clearance twice while I'm getting oriented -- and of course looking up the identifier for this other airport -- after saying zip for 30 plus miles prior. -- again not busy. Someone simply forgot -- lesson learned.

[StratusSmoke]

I've never heard of any kind of "policy". ISTM, the controller usually issues the appropriate CX to get things started and will ask the pilot to file/amend the flight plan with an FIC so that all the flight plan data is then in the computer. They may not need all the information at that exact time, but if they have to hand off to another sector/position, it's pretty well necessary.

When I've taken airfiles, it's only a matter of seconds for the data to be available to the controller if all the data is entered correctly and it's a basic plan. I can't recall any denials in the recent past for a pop-up IFR. Having said that, the vast majority of us are there to help you folks complete your mission safely but it can depend on who you get at the FIC and ACC. Some are more obliging than others. It drives me around the bend when I hear someone being snotty to pilots. We have a couple of these at my unit and I just want to slap them upside the head.