Question for Military pilots with Civvie licenses

[careerpilot?]

Good morning all,

I have a question regarding the logging of Military time in civilian logbooks. I've done a search on Avcanada and through the CARs, but haven't found anything specific to my question as of yet.

I've just finished Basic Flying Training (Moose Jaw, Harvard II), therefore not wings standard (yet). I already hold a Civilian PPL (got it before transferring to Military pilot), so my question is not in regards to transferring my license and hours over (at least not until I get to wings standard). Once at wings standard, I do intend to transfer my Military IFR ticket to Civilian - hence the importance of logging at this stage.

Effectively, I am trying to decide whether to log all of my Military flying time in my civilian logbook, or to maintain the 2 logs entirely separate. I don't intend to put Civvi time in my military book, just the military time in my Civvi book. I have the following questions for those Military pilots who also hold Civvi ratings:

1. Should I maintain 2 completely separate logs, or should I log my Military time in my Civvi logbook (I'm particularly thinking Instrument and X-Ctry time);

2. Military simulators do not seem to have a TC certification (that I can find). Can IFR time in these sims (such as the Harvard II sim in Moose Jaw) count towards the 20hr Sim time allowed for the instrument rating? CARs 421.46 states DND time can be credited, but the definition of "instrument ground time" states the FTD must be TC certified...

3. Anything else I might be missing?

The reason I ask is I do plan to do some Civvi flying between now and when I start Phase III, and I like to keep my Civvi logbook chronological. Therefore, if I'm going to enter my last 4 months of flying into it, I'd like to do so before I do any more flying (lest I choose to enter the time into the log later and forget about it!).

Any advice from those with experience in this would be greatly appreciated!


Cheers

[Schooner69A]

As one who has "been there; done that", I would recommend you start a civilian log book and transcribe your training times into it. Once you have your wings, there is usually no problem using your logbook as proof that you have the necessary experience to get a civilian licence. However, the your military log book is not yours; it belongs to "Herself" and if you are unfortunate enough to be "CT'd" before graduation, it is possible that the RCAF may retain it. It has happened before, especially to one young twit many years ago who deliberately failed his final flight tests but had made the mistake of bragging to mates about his plans to get out and acquire civilian ratings on the basis of his military training.

I maintained two logbooks until I left the military and then amalgamated the two, placing my previous civilian time after the military, then continuing on with the subsequent time accumulated.

If memory serves me right and things haven't changed, all you will have to do to acquire a commercial licence is write the exam. For your IR ticket, you will have to write the INRAT, but that's it. Which brings up a point: is the military still using a two-tier instrument rating system; white and green? Or is it just one rating now?

Best of luck.

John

[kev994]

I have never bothered to copy my military flying into a civie logbook, the idea of writing everything twice does not appeal to me. When I got my multi engine rating I simply carried both logbooks into TC office, they took a copy of 2 or 3 pages of my military logbook and $50 and gave me a multi engine license. As for commercial, I've also not seen the point of that as once you get the hours you can write the SARON and SAMRA and get an ATPL, skipping the commercial all together.

Schooner has a point in that if you get CT'd they will keep your logbook as part of the record of PRB, I know when it happened on PFT guys were allowed to transcribe it before the logbook was taken away, though I'm not sure if it was just the CFI being nice.

[kev994]

Which brings up a point: is the military still using a two-tier instrument rating system; white and green? Or is it just one rating now?

Best of luck.

John

There is still a "restricted" or "unrestricted" ticket, those with a restricted ticket require 300ft and 1 NM above landing minima to depart, the rest of us are good down to RVR 600 with a takeoff alternate and centerline lighting.

[Colonel Sanders]

With everyone using electronic logbooks these
days, I think we're really looking at a molehill
here, not a mountain.

Take a picture of each page of your logbook
and email it to yourself, if you want, as you
go through your training. It's really not very
hard to do.

[bradley]

I know quite a few guys who put their military time in a civi logbook (never the other way around), but I'm with the Colonel, I just take a photo of each completed page in my military logbook.

As for the sim time, the Harvard FTDs are not certified (and they really suck) but the sims you will use on the helo and multi courses are TC certified FTDs (they used to be sims but they got downgraded).

I assume you've already looked at it, but unless you already have it civi side, you will be lacking the xctry time for an instrument rating when you get your wings. Unless you absolutely have to go IFR flying in a Cessna, it would almost be worth it to just wait a few years until you have an unrestricted ticket and some PIC time under your belt.

[careerpilot?]

Thx for the input everyone - I was considering the picture option, and it is certainly much less work than re-copying everything. I considered using an Excel spreadsheet that tracks all of the Civi and Military times on different sheets, albeit there would then be 3 different logs to update... Were I to later transcribe the times into my Civilian log, is it acceptable for them not to be in chronological order?

I find it interesting that the Harvard FTDs are not certified. As crappy as they are (mostly in the graphics department - irrelevant in IFR training), they are miles ahead of those desktop simulators you see in flight schools - and I would even argue they are better than a Redbird, aside from lacking full motion. The new Grob simulator in Portage is TC certified, and it is roughly equivalent to the Harvard sims. However, I digress...

I'm tracking the other requirements for the Instrument rating as well. I'm in no hurry to transfer my rating over to Civi, I'll worry about it once I'm finished up with my wings courses. I'll need to do a TC test and some additional training anyway, as I plan to get a Group 1 rating (I'm already Civi Multi rated) but my Military ticket will be for Rotary (if I get what I asked for at selection this week, that is.)

Thanks for the replies!

[Klinkaroo]

Something to think about when talking about transferring to Civilian Licenses. You require 10 hours in the previous 12 months to get certain ratings. This holds especially true for those selected to fly Helicopters. If you want to avoid dragging a flight instructor in the air for 10 hours I'd recommend you get your PPL fixed wing within 12 months of graduating. It's a PSTAR and a small cheque. Again, with regards to the guys flying Helicopters. You'll get some 206 time on Phase 3, if you want a 206 type rating (you need individual type ratings for each helicopter in the civilian world) then you want to get that within the 10 in 12 rule. You might never need or use it, but think of it this way. The rental rate for a 206 now is 1000$ an hour roughly, do you want to pay 30 bucks now or 10,000$ later... Not telling anyone what to do, just some food for though.

Remember, licenses and ratings never expire, they just lack currency and it's often much cheaper to regain currency then to acquire the license at a later time.

[careerpilot?]

Something to think about when talking about transferring to Civilian Licenses. You require 10 hours in the previous 12 months to get certain ratings. This holds especially true for those selected to fly Helicopters. If you want to avoid dragging a flight instructor in the air for 10 hours I'd recommend you get your PPL fixed wing within 12 months of graduating. It's a PSTAR and a small cheque. Again, with regards to the guys flying Helicopters. You'll get some 206 time on Phase 3, if you want a 206 type rating (you need individual type ratings for each helicopter in the civilian world) then you want to get that within the 10 in 12 rule. You might never need or use it, but think of it this way. The rental rate for a 206 now is 1000$ an hour roughly, do you want to pay 30 bucks now or 10,000$ later... Not telling anyone what to do, just some food for though.

Remember, licenses and ratings never expire, they just lack currency and it's often much cheaper to regain currency then to acquire the license at a later time.

Great advice, thanks! I already have my PPL (got it the old fashioned way), but the type ratings are definately something to think about.

Cheers