Best Vancouver school for old school stick and rudder skills

[turkeycannon]

Hi all,

First post here but I've been lurking for quite a while. Apologies if this sounds like a tired re-hash of the usual "what do you think of flight school X" type threads. Hopefully though this is a slightly different take. Here's my situation.

I'm an IT consultant in Vancouver and my current contract comes to an end in March. One of the things that depresses me about IT is it's not a "skill"; it's not something that you can finely hone in the way sport, or woodworking, or flying is. So rather than searching for a new employment contract straight away, I'm going to take a couple of months out and (hopefully) work fulltime on a PPL for recreational use. I'm not a sporting guy, and I don't know a chisel from a lathe, but I would really like to learn to fly -- and hopefully in the process become a "pilot" as opposed to an "airplane driver", as somebody put it. I would rather have no instruments at all than the MFDs of a Cirrus (maybe it's the distrust of technology that comes from my day job). I want to learn coordinated flight from the beginning, not have to hammer it home later. I want to learn how to fly by the feel of the controls so relying on instruments is a choice rather than a necessity. And so on.

There are a few people on this forum who seem to be instructors and are big proponents of old school stick and rudder skills. One or two of them might even be described as notorious So what I'd like to know is, do any of these people instruct in the Lower Mainland, and if they don't mind saying so, at what school (PMs would be OK too)? That's a lot to ask, so I'd also settle for any recommendations on flight schools that would teach the kind of flying I'm after.

Tl;dr -- any recommendations for a flight school in the Lower Mainland that isn't a puppy mill, and has an emphasis on learning to fly airplanes, rather than passing a PPL exam? I know I'm (unfortunately) probably looking for a niche level of skill, so I understand that it will likely be more expensive.

Thanks!

[sidestick stirrer]

Good Morning and Welcome to The Wild West atmosphere of AvCanada.
As a flying instructor in The Lower Mainland, the only school offering what you seek that I am aware of would be Pacific Flying Club or Canadian Flight Centre( one of them has either a Citabria or a Decathlon) or Pro VFR which has an older Citabria: SPH is the registration. All of these schools are situated at Boundary Bay.

[Beefitarian]

I know two things. You're going to get a bunch of ridiculous replies including this one. and at least a couple of good private messages.

For some reason there seems to be more tail draggers and semi retired guys out west so you should be in good hands.

[turkeycannon]

...and at least a couple of good private messages.

You were right Beef, I've had a few very informative PM's already! Glacier Air seems to be recommended. Unfortunately I live literally on the other side of the Lower Mainland (near White Rock) and travelling all that way every day would be problematic.

Somebody also pointed out that it's not the school that matters, it's the instructor -- and in that respect I should have made my original post clearer. I don't care about the school really, as long as their airplanes are maintained well and they run or can recommend a ground school, I'm after instructor recommendations primarily. Freelance would be ok too (the logistics of it kind of confuse me but I'm sure that's down to my thick-headedness!).

Thanks everybody for the feedback so far -- keep it coming!

[Beefitarian]

Ground school is weird. It's just a means of helping you learn the material. If you can study on your own you can have a instructor sign you off after reading a book. Having said that I would love to find a really great commercial ground school.

You need an airplane to use a freelance guy. If you had one you would have said so. Also if you could afford to buy one you would have asked. "Should I get a cirrus or a TTX." Husky would be the answer to that one.

Don't worry, you can get access to an airplane in a few ways. Buy a share for example. It is quite a commitment still.

How mobile are you? Rent a place near Harv's as a show up and start place I suspect it might be tough to beat them.

[turkeycannon]

You need an airplane to use a freelance guy.

Oh, now I feel like an idiot. I was under the impression that you could rent one via a freelance instructor or something. Oh well, lesson learned!

Buy a share for example. It is quite a commitment still.

I would definitely be interested in doing this post-PPL, but I guess it wouldn't be wise to do it before actually getting the license in case I can't complete it or something.

[AirFrame]

@turkeycannon, don't discount it just yet. If you have the means to purchase an airplane outright, either through independent wealth or a line of credit, you would still be ahead in the long run. You'll have to carry full hull insurance on the airplane in any case, so in the event of significant damage you'll be covered. You'll learn a lot more about flying generally if you're doing your own maintenance as well (minor maintenance, on a certified a/c, or all of it, if you find an amateur-built). When you're done, you'll only have added 100 hours (tops) to its history, and you'll likely be able to sell it for what you paid for it. Paying interest only on a $20000 line of credit for a Cessna 150 for the summer wouldn't be that much money in the grand scheme of things.

Another option might be to find an ultralight school, that has something less "ultralight-y" like a Rans Courier or Rans Coyote. Do your first ten hours on one of those (heck, get a full ultralight license on one) and then go do your private in Cessna 150's. You'll have the "initial" training that will tell your brain what your feet are for. That muscle memory will come back after 45 hours in a 150.

Yet another option: join the glider club out at Hope (yes, it's a fair drive, but it is worth it), and get your glider license first. Great stick and rudder training, and a huge volume of pilot experience out there... Everything from ab-initio like you to gold bar pilots of 777's who like to have fun without engines on the weekends.

A lot of the members there are from the west end of the lower mainland, travel out on Friday after work, and return Sunday evening. There is camping space, and the clubhouse has three showers, a very large double kitchen, a nice sitting area with leather couches, and last time I was there they even had WiFi.

[Beefitarian]

You would get some great skills gliding and as long as you can go often, you pay for a tow which typically is inexpensive.

Buying an airplane or even a share in one, is one of those things in life kind of like getting married. It could be the best thing that ever happened to you or the worst. Probably a little of both. Owning a plane would be great. Fly it when and where you want. Paying for one might be crazy expensive. Broken rod ruins the crankshaft and puts a hole in the crank case = more $$$$$$$ flying away than pilots.

Then again there are lots of people who almost made money buying the right plane at the right time, learning to fly with a great freelance instructor. Later they sold the plane at the right time..

Now is a fantastic time to buy a plane, especially if you have cash. The only problem is it might get even better for buying and that means re-selling is not so good.

[turkeycannon]

Gliding is definitely something I would be interested in (I love the idea of camping out there for a weekend, especially when the weather is nice, kill two birds with one stone!), but I think right now my primary desire is to get a PPL. Doing that on a tailwheel with a suitably experienced instructor seems like it is probably the best way to get stick and rudder skills in a powered aircraft, so I'm following that route up.

Unfortunately as a recent immigrant to Canada the likelihood of me getting a line of credit sufficient to buy an airplane is pretty low! For now a share is do-able though, and is probably the way I would want to go post-PPL (the little info I could find suggested that they usually require you to get your license first, i.e. they won't let you buy-in as a student).

All really excellent points guys, thanks very much! Thanks also to everybody who PM'd, suffice it to say that a particular name came up many times, and I'm currently talking to him

I'm also definitely hoping to go up to Glacier in Squamish once I get my license and hopefully spend a week or two with them polishing skills, particularly mountain flying.

[Beefitarian]

Oh don't buy a plane on a line of credit. This is a bad time to be in debt.

Lines of credit are especially bad because of floating interest rates.

Sounds like you might be on to a good place. Another thing to consider, is it possible you could move closer to the airport you want to train at?

[Colonel Sanders]

When you do a "discovery" flight (aka intro flight)
ask the flight instructor to demo a one-wheel landing.

If he can't do one, he's probably not what you're
looking for.

[Beefitarian]

Where's that Rockwell school. They have a nice looking tail dragger. Cub?

[photofly]

When you do a "discovery" flight (aka intro flight)
ask the flight instructor to demo a one-wheel landing.

If he can't do one, he's probably not what you're
looking for.

Does it still count if you do it in a 150?

[Colonel Sanders]

Sure. Harder in a Cherokee, though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUUg8XbSmn4

[photofly]

How did the instructor get the other wheel to fall off so he could demonstrate a one-wheel landing? I need to talk to maintenance to see what they can rig up.

[Colonel Sanders]

The old "string on the cotter pin" trick. Gets
them every time.

[photofly]

Is there an STC for it? Our boys are very strict on paperwork.

[Colonel Sanders]

No STC, but I have a 337 "field approval" for it

Back to the one-wheel Cherokee video. I'm a bit disappointed
that no one noticed that even with the very hard landing, the
aircraft swung AWAY from the strut. I would have
expected the strut to dig into the pavement pretty hard, and
yaw the aircraft to the right.

Maybe he weathervaned into a crosswind from the left?

PS Despite the open door, the pilot elected to sit in the
aircraft after it stopped. I would have gotten the hell out
of it and away from it after shutting the master and fuel
off - there is this thing called "fire".

[New_PIC]

... I'm a bit disappointed
that no one noticed that even with the very hard landing, the
aircraft swung AWAY from the strut. I would have
expected the strut to dig into the pavement pretty hard, and
yaw the aircraft to the right.

Maybe he weathervaned into a crosswind from the left?
...

I'm not sure I'm thinking about this correctly but as the right wing falls, stalling at slow speed as has been described in the "falling leaf" exercise, would the pilot have been trying to keep it up with left rudder? If so, it may even have been an instinctive and unplanned reaction.

[Shiny Side Up]

No STC, but I have a 337 "field approval" for it

Back to the one-wheel Cherokee video. I'm a bit disappointed
that no one noticed that even with the very hard landing, the
aircraft swung AWAY from the strut. I would have
expected the strut to dig into the pavement pretty hard, and
yaw the aircraft to the right.

Maybe he weathervaned into a crosswind from the left?

Well since he bounces pretty good from the initial impact, he then actually keeps it off of the strut. I would guess he might be braking on his one wheel, with strut in the air, which causes him to yaw left. The airplane yaws sharply right as soon as the strut dig in.

PS Despite the open door, the pilot elected to sit in the
aircraft after it stopped. I would have gotten the hell out
of it and away from it after shutting the master and fuel
off - there is this thing called "fire".

1. He had to complete his "after crash checklist".
2. Maybe he was told his white pilot shirt was made of Nomex.
3. Maybe he was afraid of being run over by a fire truck. Those guys seemed pretty eager to hose him down.