MAYDAY in NW Ontario yesterday?

[Brown Bear]

Sketchy reports are coming through my rumour mill about a double flame out yesterday (Jan 9) in a certain fairly large turboprop? Apparently, a MAYDAY was called, but everything turned out well (thank Gawd!) and it's a non-issue. Just wondering WTF happened? Somebody would have at least had to have changed their pants, I should think?

[bizjets101]

CADORS 2014O0059

Sioux Lookout FSS contacted Winnipeg ACC to report a MAYDAY call from a Wasaya Airways Hawker Siddeley HS 748 Series 2A (WSG807) from Pickle Lake, ON (CYPL) to Kasabonika, ON (CYAQ) relayed by Superior Airways (C-FVWY). WSG807 had reportedly lost an engine and was going to land at Wunnummin Lake, ON (CKL3). WSG807 was able to re-start engine, cancelled MAYDAY and continued to destination CYAQ, landing without further incident at 2319Z. NOC and CACO advised.

[Brown Bear]

That pesky intake anti-ice?

[SmokinJoe]

Ok I dont normally do this but after I read this I couldn't help it. A MAYDAY call is a call of distress is it not! I wasen't there so I do not know what happened before or after they landed in KL3. So they land safely (thank goodness), get the engine restarted, and continue on to YAQ???? Do you think this would be prudent? Do you know WHY the engine failed? Was it a fuel issue? Or did someone just inadverntly pull the condition lever to cutoff?

What im getting at is may be it would have been best to ground the airplane in KL3, fly up a mechanic and have it checked out. May be they did do that, it just dosen't seem so in the wording of the CADORS.

[JigglyBus]

Where does it say they landed?

[GyvAir]

Edit for lack of relevance.

[Redneck_pilot86]

I think smokingjoe overlooked that they were diverting to KL3 but never actually landed there, and was commenting under the impression that they landed single engine, restarted on the ground and then departed for YAQ.

[GyvAir]

oops.. I completely missed SmokinJoe's whole post and thought JigglyBus had misread something. As you were!

[lownslow]

I don't know anything about Hawkers other than their engines seem to run on some nail-and-chalkboard principle. What embarrassing thing can you do that results in an engine quitting and staying quit until you go through the actions to restart it?

LnS.

[Liquid Charlie]

Regardless or what happened -- the Mayday was declared -- so now "the cat is out of the bag" -- there will be SMS reports filed and the paper trail is there -- and there better be a good reason (finger trouble is the only one) to continue -- taxing the old brain -- maybe anti-ice without the late selection drill comes to mind -- I'm thinking at the very least the crew will be required to do more training if in fact a fckup caused the incident -- minor peepee whack and a better crew emerges -- if the cause was unknown and they proceeded now that would be a major and kicking stones could (should?) be a reality --

[Brown Bear]

Well LC, I had one just up and auto feather out of God's Lake, and after much head scratching, we relit it and continued empty to Churchill. We had company involved in the decision to continue past Thompson. On further investigation, that engine (on a different airframe) had done this before. We continued to fly it all week with zero problems.

Something "other than finger trouble" that can put the fire out, is turning on the intake anti ice AFTER picking up ice. Sometimes it's better to just leave it off. I can't recall (other than bringing the HP cock back instead of the throttle?) anything that would accidentally shut off an engine??

I had heard that both engines were somehow involved, which would certainly have me hollering MAYDAY!

And for SmokinJoe......I'd far rather call a mayday and not have needed to, than the other war round, for sure.

These guys flying these reverseless, 45000 pound antiques in and out of 3500 foot strips in all kinds of weather, are the best hands and feet out there. I'm just very happy everybody is okay!

[Liquid Charlie]

that can put the fire out, is turning on the intake anti ice AFTER picking up ice

does that not require the late selection drill as does the fuel filter lights -- drills are not the same but both get the ignition on -- been over 20 years since I managing the RR alarm clocks but I know there have been flame outs by not doing the drill prior to selecting anti-icing --

It's a sign of the times -- I for one would not proceed for an unknown cause of a flame out or auto feather -- their would need to be greasy hand prints on the cowls before I would move the aircraft from where I parked it -- and ground checked serviceable would not work -- I might agree to ferry(with a permit) to a maintenance facility but I would certainly not fly it again until it was fixed and in your example they came change the damn engine --

[Brown Bear]

Well, they spent a night on it in Churchill. We slept after a couple of very cold beers, of course. The book was signed out in the morning, along with a reference to the previous auto feather. It was a bit bizarre. Today, my thinking is more along the "change the bloody engine" lines.

[SmokinJoe]

Yes I did miss that in the CADORS that they did intend to land in KL3 but chose not to after getting the engine relit. I thought they had landed then restarted and went off to Kas.

I'm not slamming them for declaring a MAYDAY, perfect thing to do. I was trying to state that your saying "hey I need help NOW! Situation is dire!" then getting it relit and be like "meah, nevermind, desregard my last".

Who know's, I wasn't there. Glad everyone is alright tho.

[C-FABH]

"Wasaya flight 809, a Hawker Siddeley HS-748-2A aircraft, registration C-GMAA was enroute from Pickle Lake to Kasabonika. While in cruise the aircraft encoutered icing conditions. After ice had accumulated, the crew selected engine deice for both engines. Shortly after the deice selection was made, the left engine (Rolls Royce Dart RDA7) lost all power and went into auto feather. The right engine then began to run rough with fluctuating torque and RPM indications. The crew declared an emergency and began a double engine failure drill by selecting the engine relight for both engines. The right engine then began to run smoothly and full power was restored. An attempt to re-light the left engine was successful and all engine parameters were normal. The crew withdrew their emergency declaration and landed at their destination without further incident. Information provided indicated that ice accumulation shed after engine deice selection could be ingested into the engine and interrupt engine operation."

[Brown Bear]

So, it was that pesky intake anti-ice. Bet they won't have that happen again!

[pelmet]

oops, I accidentally started a second thread on the subject because I didn't read this one.

vcollazo had a good post in response which could get deleted so I'll put it here....

"We had a similar incident many years ago at NWA. One of our DC9s was going into Houston Texas, and ice was the last thing on their minds. Anyhow, they either weren't paying attention or ignored company policy and FOM guidance to turn on engine anti ice with temps 6°C or below in visible moisture. Shortly after entering the clouds they noticed ice building up on the windshield wipers, and turned on engine and wing anti ice. Shortly thereafter both engines compressor stalled and rolled back to near idle. They landed safely, but both engines had to be replaced. As a result of this, guidance was put out that if you were slow to recognize that you had entered icing conditions the correct procedure would be to pull one engine back to idle and then apply engine heat. After a minute or two you could slowly advance power and if everything seemed normal then you would repeat the same procedure on the other engine. Bottom line, don't turn on engine anti ice at medium to high power settings when you suspect or know that ice has already accumulated in the engine intakes and inlet guide vanes."


Good points. You might also see on some 4 engine types, a procedure that says if you forgot to turn on anti-ice and find yourself with an accumulation, select it on for a symmetrical pair of engines, then wait, then the other pair. I suppose if you had exited the icing conditions and were going to stay in below freezing conditions, you could consider not activating the anti-ice. Thoughts anyone?

[rigpiggy]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com ... ipo=images

The prop spinner and lips are 115 vac deiced

[AirFrame]

"...As a result of this, guidance was put out that if you were slow to recognize that you had entered icing conditions the correct procedure would be to pull one engine back to idle and then apply engine heat. After a minute or two you could slowly advance power and if everything seemed normal then you would repeat the same procedure on the other engine...."

This leads to what I was taking away from this... even if you *do* turn on the anti-ice after realizing you're getting ice, don't turn it on for both engines at the same time... Do one first, then after you've confirmed that doing it hasn't rendered you FUBAR, turn on the other one.

[pelmet]

"...As a result of this, guidance was put out that if you were slow to recognize that you had entered icing conditions the correct procedure would be to pull one engine back to idle and then apply engine heat. After a minute or two you could slowly advance power and if everything seemed normal then you would repeat the same procedure on the other engine...."

This leads to what I was taking away from this... even if you *do* turn on the anti-ice after realizing you're getting ice, don't turn it on for both engines at the same time... Do one first, then after you've confirmed that doing it hasn't rendered you FUBAR, turn on the other one.

Or possibly attempt a restart of the one engine that failed instead of dealing with a near simultaneous double engine failure.