Direct Crosswind

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Colonel Sanders
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Direct Crosswind

Post by Colonel Sanders »

I was doing a little tailwheel training recently, and
the wind (as reported at CYOW) was 15G25 knots
directly across our little runway. Cold front, ya know.

So I went through the choice with the student: take
the crosswind from the left or from the right? No
one else was flying, so it was up to us to make the
choice.

In my experience, most pilots take the crosswind
from the left, because it "feels good" to turn left
onto final, then drop the left wing for the landing.

And it's the wrong choice.

With standard left traffic, no one compensates for
the crosswind on downwind, and there's a howling
tailwind on base, so you're really high on final and
overshooting. You're screwed up before you even
join final, which is not a great way to start a difficult
(for most people) approach. But that's what they
like to do.

Another (more important) consideration: if you
have a Lycoming or Continental or Frankling engine,
when you add power, the nose goes left, which you
oppose with right rudder on takeoff.

So, if you choose the crosswind from the left, and
you inevitably weathervane (left) and you add power,
the nose swings even further left, and you run out
of right rudder. It's all the way to the floor and you
can't stop the nose from swinging even more to
the left. It's terrifying, but that's what people want
to happen to them.

We took the crosswind from the right. We had lots
of time on base - we didn't get behind the airplane -
and if we weathervaned right, all we had to do was
add power and the nose would naturally swing left
without us having to do anything brilliant with the
rudder.

I emphasized the requirement for full aileron into
wind as we slowed down (why?)

Anyways, we had a good flight. A bit bumpy as
expected, but we kept it slow - well below Va, we
were nowhere near max gross - and with our lap
belts done up tight, the main concern is smashing
your head against the aircraft.

Now, I have typed in the above many times here,
and I would hope that most of the above is common
knowledge. Hell, it's in FTGU.

But as I was taxiing in, I saw an 8k TT pilot taxiing
out .... choosing to take the crosswind from the left.

Sigh.

Sometimes the windsock swings back and forth,
and pilots panic, and take the crosswind from the
left even if there is perhaps one knot of headwind
component with the wind on the left. They want
to avoid the horrendous one knot of tailwind
component, if they take the wind from the right.

It seems to be common knowledge amongst
the pilot population that one or two knots of
tailwind component is fatal - first time, every
time.

For example, sometimes I will take a one knot
tailwind component so I don't have to land to
the west, squinting into the blinding, setting sun.

I have received horrible screeching and honking
on the radio concerning this practice from pilots
that are convinced that one knot of tailwind
component WILL KILL THEM.

This kind of annoys me. The runway is many
thousands of feet long. You should be approaching
at 65 knots. I land jets on this runway with Vref
of 125 knots. so, 65 +1 = 66 knots probably won't
kill you.

The irony, of course, is that these pilot approach
much too fast anyways, and carry another 10 knots
of speed on approach, even though one knot of
tailwind component will kill them :roll:
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by Shiny Side Up »

The other part of this problem Colonel, is that people are remarkably weather apathetic, or weather ignorant. Lots of pilots, if I ask them "which side is the cross wind comming from" will get it wrong. So its unsuprising that they won't always use the optimal runway. In the tailwheel, taking the crosswind from the right or left has other factors as well, and many of them local ones. For example, my home field is shorter than yours, has a slope, and seems to have its own weather sometimes given the proximity of the mountains and the wisely built houses. Fun stuff. Wind at 1000' agl and the surface are frequently different. This makes for a more complex puzzle. Even being parallel to the mountain ranges, it rarely gets a straight crosswind, and those days it does, you'd be a fool to fly anyhow.

Back to my original point though, I'd be suprised if most pilots really give the problem much thought. Not a cerebral bunch as you usually point out. They're happy to stick with the "always land and take off into the wind". Windsocks are 100% accurate. A long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away) I landed and took off from a place identified as CYBA. The idea that you might have two windsocks pointing in different directions would scare the shit out of most people.
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DowneastGuy
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by DowneastGuy »

Is it possible the 8k TT pilot was taking off in the direction nearest his enroute heading?
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Its probable, I would say. Shaving a few minutes off of one's flight is often way more of a concern for most pilots than what the wind is doing. See it all the time, guys taking uphill, tailwind takeoffs that get way too close to the end of the pavement.

I guess one should say here though that the cross wind from the left is somewhat more worrisome on landing than it is on take off, since usually on take off if one has some reasonable performance, you're going to be quickly enough into the safety of the air. You're also raising the tail rather than lowering it.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by photofly »

I emphasized the requirement for full aileron into
wind as we slowed down (why?)
The extra drag from the down aileron, which is on the downwind side, helps keep the nose straight during the rollout.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Correct. As the aircraft slows down, it will tend to
weathervane into the powerful crosswind. The rudder
will lose effectiveness rapidly (proportional to the inverse
square of airspeed - half the speed, 1/4 the effectiveness)
and the only thing stopping you from driving off the upwind
side of the runway is the brake on the downwind main,
and the aileron on the downwind wing.

You would be amazed how many pilots are unaware of
this critical little detail. I guess there are those of us that
fly in crosswinds, and those that don't.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by Shiny Side Up »

I would say that most pilots are aware, its just that they don't care. Only when its presented really graphically to them does the bell ring that "oh, hey, it is important!" Usually at the point of where their airplane is trying to go off the runway.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Colonel Sanders wrote:
With standard left traffic, no one compensates for
the crosswind on downwind, and there's a howling
tailwind on base, so you're really high on final and
overshooting. You're screwed up before you even
join final, which is not a great way to start a difficult
(for most people) approach. But that's what they
like to do.

:

I don't think it should matter which way the wind is blowing in the circuit. Adjusting the flight path to keep the airplane in the right place is not very hard. Especially for low time pilots, thinking about how to do the crosswind landing shouldn't start on short final it should start before joining the circuit. Thinking about which way the airplane will be pushed around by the wind going into the circuit, and on final, and through the flare when they are cruising into circuit is a lot easier than on short final or in the flare.......

I would also suggest that one of the least well understood concepts, even among high time pilots is the fact that during the takeoff and landing roll in a crosswind the aircraft will try to turn into the wind. For some reason many pilots think the opposite. :smt017
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by 172_Captain »

I may be stating the obvious, then again maybe not. But I'd be willing to bet the majority of pilots prefer a left crosswind because the majority of people are right handed, meaning the right side of their body is the dominate side. So right rudder to combat a crosswind from the left will always feel more natural.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by PilotDAR »

So right rudder to combat a crosswind from the left will always feel more natural.
I'm not so sure that I agree with that, though I do agree that more pilots seem to like the crosswind from the left, all other things being equal.

I some of the more common stick configured light aircraft, the throttle is on the left, leaving your right hand on the stick. "Closing" your right arm toward a left crosswind probably offers more strength and control finesse, that "opening" it toward a right crosswind.

I find in any case, that when sitting on the left, the field of view for a wing low to the left is more to my liking.

However, if you are having to counteract torque on takeoff on most light aircraft, taking the crosswind from the right might make things easier... But I still prefer from the left, I just open the throttle for takeoff, pointed right a bit on the runway!
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by Rookie50 »

Any comments on what a realistic X-wind component limit should for my 182 RG?

My skill is reasonable in this area, on thing that concerns me on this AC is both the small tires and not the most durable retractable gear, which I value. Been trying to do some refresher night circuits and approaches, but I do hesitate when the wind is 210 15 G25, putting it 70 degrees off our one lighted and somewhat narrow runway.

Perhaps Ill wait for a calmer night until I have a chunk more time in this AC.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by white_knuckle_flyer »

Colonel, can you clarify what you mean by "weathervaning" ? I recall being lambasted for using this term a while back. I was quickly schooled that planes only "weathervane" on the ground and never do so once in the moving airmass. When you say the plane tends to "weathervane" into the crosswind, is this only the case for a right xwind and the "weathervaning" is actually the loss of slipstream on the rudder?

If you are implying that xwind ( gusts?) can alter the plane's heading through interaction with the vert. stab. then I am going to be pissed. :lol:
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by Colonel Sanders »

"weathervaning" is the tendency of an aircraft
on the ground, to want to turn into the wind.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by photofly »

I was quickly schooled that planes only "weathervane" on the ground and never do so once in the moving airmass.
Shoot the person that told you that.

Aircraft try to weathervane by nosing into the relative airflow every second they're in the air. It's just the normal directional stability provided by the vertical stabilizer, in action. That's all weathervaning is, and it happens in the air just like it does on the ground.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by Pop n Fresh »

Crab? I like to make the plane go where I want it to take me.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by Colonel Sanders »

That's all weathervaning is, and it happens in the air
In straight and level flight, yaw the aircraft
with a bootful of rudder, wings level, then
take your foot off the rudder.

What does the aircraft do?

PS Is it illegal to give C2H5OH to your dog,
like it is to your kids? Does the dog have to
be over 18?
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by trey kule »

Any comments on what a realistic X-wind component limit should for my 182 RG?
I am not the greatest lover of graphs , charts, formulas etc, though I have to use them every day.

In the old days with a plane like a 182, you lined up the approach on the extended centerline, dropped a wing to keep it there and rudder to keep it straight. When you ran out of rudder you were at the limit. Probably was a dumb way to do it, but it seemed to work.

We had more difficulty with actually being blown off the runway then weathercocking.

Now as to the weathercocking unless you are moving... I can see how that started, though I never thought much about it before.

When the Beaver first came out it had terrible brakes (ineffective). We would land and then as the plane pretty much came to a stop it would start weathercocking and brakes and aileron would not hold it. We ended up sitting on the runway centerline, or just a bit off it, weathercocked. When it came time to depart, we straightened it out (actually the nose a bit out of wind)and if someone was available they held the tail..once the little rascal started moving you had control and could take off. I can understand how some people might generalize that.

To the best of my knowledge and experience that was pretty much unique to the beaver, but I never operated other planes in those kinds of winds.

Trip down memory lane..
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Last edited by trey kule on Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by Rookie50 »

"blown off the runway....". Exactly. The RG tires are pretty small -- so that's my thought too.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by photofly »

Regular 182: 6.00-6
182RG: 15x6.00-6

Same width and rim diameter, lower outside diameter. Can't remember what the diameter of a regular 6.00-6 is, but it can't be a huge amount more than 15", and you have the same tire width.

EDIT: they're also twice the price :-)
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by trey kule »

I just have a moment here. The tire size is not as important as the runway surface type and its condition. I dont expect you should anticipate and lateral drift landing on dry pavement with a very stiff x-wind. But on a wet grass strip in a howling x-sind, I would give it some thought, It is a scary experience..
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by white_knuckle_flyer »

Colonel Sanders wrote:"weathervaning" is the tendency of an aircraft
on the ground, to want to turn into the wind.
Sure, I get that but how does a crosswind make the plane weathervane ?
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by photofly »

Because an aircraft has directional stability: it's designed to fly nose first.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by white_knuckle_flyer »

photofly wrote:Because an aircraft has directional stability: it's designed to fly nose first.
Sure, but I've read, heard, and been told time and time again that with the exception of gusting, a crosswind does not act upon the directional stability of a plane since it is moving within the airmass.

Are people using the term "weathervaning" incorrectly here ? For example, a xwind from the left does not cause the plane to "weathervane" left but the horizontal component of the crosswind simply requires the plane to travel towards the runway with the nose to the left.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by trampbike »

white_knuckle_flyer wrote:For example, a xwind from the left does not cause the plane to "weathervane" left but the horizontal component of the crosswind simply requires the plane to travel towards the runway with the nose to the left.
Looks to me like this is exactly the definition of weathervaning (the natural tendency of an aircraft to align its longitudinal axis with the relative airflow).
Maybe you use weathervane to describe the short moment when the aircraft is actually yawing towards this stable position. Then yes in this case it only happens on take-off, when there is a change in wind velocity or any time you release an excessive amount of rudder and the aircraft yaws back to the coordinated position.
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Re: Direct Crosswind

Post by pelmet »

In terms of headwind or tailwind on base, why don't you just take the crosswind half the time from each direction. Then the student gets to practice both a headwind and a tailwind on base, gets to see the difference and can plan accordingly so that in the future when they don't have a choice they will be well versed.

Anybody who operates Clyde River knows that you will inevitably end up circling at night with a 25 knot tailwind on base leg to end up on a slant final in order to maintain a reasonable distance from terrain on final on a not particularly long runway.

Totally unnecessary to build an airport with all the flat terrain around but someone put it near that hill for some reason.
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