ACPA Negotiations Audit

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

ratherbee
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 10:12 am

ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by ratherbee »

So it sounds like the ACPA MEC received a report card today on their performance at negotiations/arbitration. It was conducted by outside experts who interviewed a large number of individuals involved in the failed process.
The report will be released to the membership on Friday. it should be entitled "snapping defeat from the jaws of victory."
A grade of F would be too good considering the damage that has been done, especially to our junior pilots. They should expelled.
---------- ADS -----------
 
crj_705
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:25 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by crj_705 »

When your Negots team get their report card they should bring it to Herndon, VA...they have great negotiations seminars there for MEMBERS!!!! :smt014
---------- ADS -----------
 
teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2450
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by teacher »

crj_705 wrote:When your Negots team get their report card they should bring it to Herndon, VA...they have great negotiations seminars there for MEMBERS!!!! :smt014
:smt023
---------- ADS -----------
 
https://eresonatemedia.com/
https://bambaits.ca/
https://youtube.com/channel/UCWit8N8YCJSvSaiSw5EWWeQ
Stu Pidasso
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by Stu Pidasso »

Of all the names I've called that POS TA1, "Jaws of Victory" was not one of them. Joining ALPA would be a smart move, unfortunately there is a group (that clings to power) that won't let go of ACPA.

Which should be taken out to the back 40 and put out of its misery.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
pilotbzh
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 612
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:33 am
Location: yyz

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by pilotbzh »

I don't think ALPA is a solution, UNIFOR like ATC would be an improvement... :smt040

There is no pilot union at Air Canada ,just an association govern by management wannabes.... :twisted:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Stu Pidasso
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:55 pm

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by Stu Pidasso »

Yep, we are 3000 non-Union Pilots. ALPA would at least provide some much needed Adult Supervision.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ratherbee
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 10:12 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by ratherbee »

Very thorough report. It sounds like the issue is more about following advice than any question on the the ability to obtain good advice.

As for adult supervision it also sounds like the answer is more adult behaviour from elected officials and members.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8433
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by Rockie »

Stu Pidasso wrote:Yep, we are 3000 non-Union Pilots. ALPA would at least provide some much needed Adult Supervision.
Couldn't agree more. ACPA has operated in a rose-coloured bubble since inception and never sees the truck that repeatedly runs them over. The fact so many of us are still so unwilling to join the real world is not flattering.
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4127
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by rudder »

So, an audit is conducted, a report is written, and the report is disseminated to the membership.

What happens now? Anything? Nothing?
---------- ADS -----------
 
ratherbee
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 10:12 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by ratherbee »

Looks like the gang on the acpa forum don't want to talk about the audit. Gee I wonder why?
It calls for some big changes in structure and behaviour. A lot of pilots will have to look in the mirror and ask themselves some tough questions. I guess that's why no one wants to talk about it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Frankly
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 5:37 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by Frankly »

Yep, they were a pretty chatty group whenever anyone tried to interject some logic into negots discussions, now nothing.

That audit pretty much confirmed everything i knew or evan suspected about that gang of thugs. Basically, some pretty bad behaviour by a vocal minority ended up costing the pilot group hundreds of millions over the duration of the contract, and some of the worst instigators ended up on the MEC. If they had any integrity, theyd resign. But then again, if they had any integrity, we wouldn't have been dragged through the mud and ended up with a worse contract.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Frankly
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 5:37 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by Frankly »

Yep, they were a pretty chatty group whenever anyone tried to interject some logic into negots discussions, now nothing.

That audit pretty much confirmed everything i knew or evan suspected about that gang of thugs. Basically, some pretty bad behaviour by a vocal minority ended up costing the pilot group hundreds of millions over the duration of the contract, and some of the worst instigators ended up on the MEC. If they had any integrity, theyd resign. But then again, if they had any integrity, we wouldn't have been dragged through the mud and ended up with a worse contract.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Norwegianwood
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:16 pm

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by Norwegianwood »

ratherbee wrote:It calls for some big changes in structure and behavior. .
Soooo, build the sandbox walls higher and take away their candy, that might cause some behavioral changes to the self appointed holier than thou's!
NOT........ :smt014
---------- ADS -----------
 
ratherbee
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 10:12 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by ratherbee »

No, I didn't see those recommendations in the report. I did see one about joining another big union/association and another one about transforming into a properly structured organization.

ACPA has grown up problems and needs grown up solutions -not talk about sandboxes and candy.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Norwegianwood
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:16 pm

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by Norwegianwood »

ratherbee wrote:ACPA has grown up problems and needs grown up solutions -not talk about sandboxes and candy.
Then THEY need to grow up and quit acting like 3 year old spoilt brats that have no idea what it's like to think like an adult.
'nuf said grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
NW
---------- ADS -----------
 
teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2450
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by teacher »

There is only one solution. 1 union representing all pilots. Whether it be an existing one or a new one, a real union/association with the interests of ALL Canadian pilots in mind, not just one faction.
---------- ADS -----------
 
https://eresonatemedia.com/
https://bambaits.ca/
https://youtube.com/channel/UCWit8N8YCJSvSaiSw5EWWeQ
Frankly
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 5:37 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by Frankly »

I thought the report should have gone even further, and i was surprised they didnt mention the black list on the ACPA forum, the fact that pilots who accepted drafts received anonymous harassing and threatenening phone calls, as well as phone calls from "Pilot X" telling guys to book off. There was an article that circulated at the time saying that in order to secure a good contract, pilots should present themselves as highly trained prifessionals who deserve to be paid accordingly. Instead we got the angry children tactics, "If you dont give us what we want, were gonna taxi slow, book off when were not sick, and write in the log book in red pen."

So now, it looks like they want us to turn the page and move on, only the page is covered with $&#¥. At the very least, they should be getting rid of the guys who ended up on the MEC by falsely discrediting the previous occupants, as well as some recognition that the 27 "traitors" were actually trying to get the ship turn aroung before it was steered over a cliff.

It is interesting that no one is commenting on the report though. I wonder if they've been told to keep their mouths shut, or they're just too embarassed. Youd think at the very least, Disco Stu would be here blustering about how he has no regrets and if he had to do it all over again he wouldnt change anything. :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
ratherbee
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 10:12 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by ratherbee »

Yes, I almost forgot about those childish tactics. One of the funniest things that happened while these bozo's were running the asylum was when one of the Pilot X's unknowingly called an MLO and told him to book off! To the manager's credit he said he had a meeting to attend so wouldn't be participating in the sick-out. :lol:

I agree that those responsible for leading us into the FOS should resign. It's called integrity. One of our current "leaders" rationalized his actions by stating "it's only politics." Politics cost us hundreds of millions of dollars and gutted our junior pilots' careers.

The ACPA Forum has always been dominated by a vocal militant minority. Here's a quote that may explain their silence:

During the last few rounds of negotiations, it is apparent that aggressive negotiations expectations fueled by a vocal minority of more militant voices with an anti-Company attitude has resulted in government imposed arbitrations and settlements that have worked against the pilot group and appears to have cost the Members a significant amount of credibility and compensation. Hopefully future leaders will learn from this experience and ensure that future labour negotiations and ratifications are freed from short term, negative emotional reactions and are conducted in a positive and professional manner.
---------- ADS -----------
 
yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2788
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by yycflyguy »

Frankly wrote:Yep, they were a pretty chatty group whenever anyone tried to interject some logic into negots discussions, now nothing.

That audit pretty much confirmed everything i knew or evan suspected about that gang of thugs. Basically, some pretty bad behaviour by a vocal minority ended up costing the pilot group hundreds of millions over the duration of the contract, and some of the worst instigators ended up on the MEC. If they had any integrity, theyd resign. But then again, if they had any integrity, we wouldn't have been dragged through the mud and ended up with a worse contract.
That is revisionist history at its best.

No mention of blunder that was TA1.

No mention that TA1, which never should have seen the light of day, was voted down by 67% of the membership.
http://www.cp24.com/air-canada-pilots-r ... t-1.646260

No mention of how the CAIL pension was going to be funded by the junior pilots new DC pension.

No mention of the membership recalls.
http://business.financialpost.com/2011/ ... -chairman/

No mention of the 97% participation with a 97% mandate from the membership in favour of striking.
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/ ... -unlikely/

No mention of the secrecy of NC1 and failed communication between them and the membership and MEC.

No mention of how the corporation locked out its pilots.
http://www.thestar.com/business/2012/03 ... onday.html

No mention of how the company refused to negotiate until the pilots pressured the operation with their "childish" antics of adherence to the contract, no draft, no makeup.

No mention of how the Conservative government deemed Air Canada an essential service (still awaiting that one)
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/ ... -decision/

No mention of how the Conservative government enacted C-33 which became the protecting air services law in record time.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012 ... ining.html

Don't let those facts get in the way of your holier than thou attitude.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Frankly
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 5:37 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by Frankly »

So your saying that this independant external audit which was commissioned by ACPA, and basically confirmed what was in the previous internal audit, is revisionist history, but everything you read in the papers is completely true and without bias? :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2788
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by yycflyguy »

It's ok to laugh.

Where can I find a link that confirms there was a a "group of thugs" running the show?

I suppose you support the new co-operative relationship between ACPA and AC and this "professional" approach will secure a more lucrative and equitable contract for the entire membership? How'd that "professional" approach work out for the failed TA1 and recalled leaders?

Which union would you say has the greatest solidarity and is paid the most disproportionately? I'd say CAW. How do they consistently secure great contracts? By invoking industrial action and taking a stand. By having quick, decisive decisions made by their leadership. Something AC pilots know nothing about because they are too worried about appearing "professional".
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/23 ... ght-chaos/
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4127
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by rudder »

The key to industrial success is no different than the key to a successful flight - situational awareness.

Most of the other unions have that and therefore perhaps have seen proportionally less devastation to their WAWCON even though they have been subject to the same demands from the same source.

One thing is for certain, those that refuse to learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TheStig
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 871
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by TheStig »

rudder wrote: One thing is for certain, those that refuse to learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.
Very true, however ACPA is following the exact same path that led to TA1, with leadership keeping the pilot group completely shut out and putting out monthly newsletters describing how they are building a strong relationship with management and working toward a better contract for all pilots.

So what past mistakes are you suggesting the membership should learn from? Simply ratify any future substandard, one sided agreement tentative agreement that only addresses the short term interests of a small portion of the pilot group while handing the company massive long term concessions, so we can say we've learned from our mistakes?
---------- ADS -----------
 
ratherbee
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 10:12 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by ratherbee »

Stig

Have you read the audit? Although the MEC is returning to the path of reason it is only after retreating from the path of ignorance. They now seem to be following advice that they pay for, listening to committee experts, and have put politics aside to show actual leadership.

There are lots of things that all of us can and should learn from the findings. Although the TA provided lots of career protection and pay for junior pilots the one-sided arbitrated result took that all away and rewarded the most senior pilots. Although pensions will be reduced due to the lack of MPU increases contained in the TA, these senior pilots will be able to offset that loss by staying to 65. Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot!

ACPA has a history of circling the wagons and then shooting inwards. Here's a perfect example where a militant minority did just that and screwed themselves in the process.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Frankly
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 5:37 am

Re: ACPA Negotiations Audit

Post by Frankly »

yycflyguy wrote:It's ok to laugh.

Where can I find a link that confirms there was a a "group of thugs" running the show?

I suppose you support the new co-operative relationship between ACPA and AC and this "professional" approach will secure a more lucrative and equitable contract for the entire membership? How'd that "professional" approach work out for the failed TA1 and recalled leaders?

Which union would you say has the greatest solidarity and is paid the most disproportionately? I'd say CAW. How do they consistently secure great contracts? By invoking industrial action and taking a stand. By having quick, decisive decisions made by their leadership. Something AC pilots know nothing about because they are too worried about appearing "professional".
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/23 ... ght-chaos/
The audit referred to a "militant vocal minority". I thought that was overly polite. When road shows are disrupted, or cancelled due to security concerns, when pilots and their families get threatening phone calls, yep, those are thugs. You must have missed the point of the report, which was how we went from TA1 to TA minus 1. If you think that any of the "industrial action" worked, then why didnt we get a better contract? All it did was alienate the passengers, damage the reputation of the company and our union, and piss off the minister in charge of deciding whether or not we had the right to strike.

You obviously didnt like TA1, thats your opinion, and you have a right to your opinion, but in a democratic union, all that gets you is one vote. A TA isnt supposed to pass or fail based on how angry the vocal minority is, but thats what happened here. You can complain about the govt taking away our right to strike, but how about the right to a fair vote? Like it or not, that TA might have passed if it werent for some very underhanded tactics, and we'd have had a better contract than we ended up with, without all the BS.

And speaking of losing the right to strike, my 5 year old could have seen that coming a mile away. You have to play the hand your dealt, not the one you wish you had. You cant keep blaming the government for this one, our union leaders were warned by the experts they were paying not to go this route, and they did it anyway.

Rudder has it right, if you want to keep pointing fingers in the wrong direction, its going to happen again. Ignoring the advice of the experts has already proven to be very costly. We just paid a couple of independent auditors to tell us what went wrong, and now you want to ignore them because you dont like the answer. Good luck with that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”