ATC?

[DS719]

I am currently facing the problem most young pilots do. Do I continue chasing the hours in hopes of the dream job or do I change things up? So I am starting to look at ATC, however was hoping people out there had some insight in the life at ATC. Looking for information on lifestyle, how many days they work, hours, things like that. I am also fairly curious if it is as stress full as people make it out to be or if that is just talk? Anyway any help would be great, thanks all.

[MWadham]

I too am possibly thinking about ATC and would love to hear some insight aswell.

[bob sacamano]

Looking for information on lifestyle, how many days they work, hours, things like that. I am also fairly curious if it is as stress full as people make it out to be or if that is just talk? Anyway any help would be great, thanks all.

Speaking from experience (yyz twr); shift work, on the 1st of the month its 6on 3 off, however, once we got our hands on it it looked more like 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. Shifts were morning to noon, noon to evening, and 2 worked overnight, this may be different now, back then yyz closed between 1230-5am (1999). During the 8hrs, if its a slow day and most of the workforce is there, you work for an hr and break for an hr, if half the workforce + busy day, then you earn your money.

It's not just talk, it is stressfull, at the time I was there, I was rather young, I hadn't discovered stress yet I've seen guys being sent home due to close calls, some piss their pants, and some get a rush from it, just like flying. Most were licenced and switched due to lack of work.

[CD]

Everything you ever wanted to know you can find out here:

Squawk Ident: A Communication Website for Canadian Air Traffic Controllers

[brokenwing]

money's good and you go get to sleep in your own bed. oh and the moneys good. plus the time off.

plus down the road you could buy yerself a nice little airplane and fly when you want, not when your boss wants you to.

[FamilyGuy]

Everything depends on where you apply from as all training is now regional. Where are you living right now?

While the CBA is universal, the actual conditions in the 7 major ACC's vary substantially.

[brokenwing]

YYZ, YVR, YUL and YQX are all good posting's for IFR respectivley. Not too sure about VFR. The starting salary once your checked out in IFR is pretty dang good too!.

[brokenwing]

p.s. what is a CBA?

[SierraPoppa]

p.s. what is a CBA?

Collective Bargaining Agreement.

[SierraPoppa]

Everything depends on where you apply from as all training is now regional. Where are you living right now?

While the CBA is universal, the actual conditions in the 7 major ACC's vary substantially.

All IFR training is done regionally, VFR training is still done in Cornwall. The positives for regional training should be the training would be more appropriate for the ACC you were hired to work in. The negative could be that Navcan may not provide housing for those in training whereas they do provide accomodation for VFR trainees in Cornwall.

Rumour has it that Edmonton ACC has an abysmal success rate for trainees, hopefully regionally specific traing will help this improve.

[brokenwing]

housing is not provided in regional training. The amount of time from your start of training to your first paycheck could be anywhere from 6 months to a year.

[justplanecrazy]

Make sure you want to do this before you start going through the motions.

To start off with you have to pay to write the test, after the test there's an interview, then school with tuition, then paid training(30g/year).

The minimum time you will spend without knowing your final fate is a year and the max. being close to five years. I've known people that just about made it in the IFR world after 2 years of overall training. At the last stage they got CT'd and recoursed VFR. Then after more than 1 year of training VFR they cot CT'd from that too. So they've been making money for most of this time but just spent 4 years of their life that they can't get back. ATC schooling is absolutely useless outside of ATC for getting a job and unlike flying there is only one employer and one shot on this side of things.

I don't mean to discourage you but you have to realise that the sacrafice and chances are very similar to getting your CPL. If you do apply and get in, expect about 30% of the successful applicants to get through the schooling, then about 30% to make it through the training. This last figure varies from 5% -80% depending on where you get posted. I've heard figures that out of every 1000 initial applicants only 1 gets a licence. It's a long tough road and the end for some people is fantastic but for others its very dissapointing and stressfull.

I work 5 days on with 3 off for 6 weeks then 4 on 4 off once and back to 5/3. Sure you get to sleep in your own bed and have a job to go to but there are sacrafices. If Christmas falls on your day on... look forward to saying merry christmas to Westjet and not your family. As well, weekends become a thing of the past. Sure you only work a 36hr work week but when everyone else is off on their 9-5 job or away on the long weekend, you're probably at work. As far as the stress goes... its not at all like flying. For me just about biting it in the cockpit is way different then watching someone else bite it out the window. That may be just me but I could always go to the bar after a scary flight and forget about it the moment the problem ends. Ask a retiring controller when his last nightmare was and you'll probably get a good idea of the differences in stress. Some people aren't stressed when putting themselves in danger but can't handle watching other people in danger, others are opposite.

Good luck with whatever you choose,
I wish I had continued flying

[grimey]

The minimum time you will spend without knowing your final fate is a year and the max. being close to five years.

You may also spend up to 18 months on a waiting list before you even start your course. If you do apply, DO NOT quit your day job until you're selected for training, and have been told to pack your bags and move to NCTI or an ACC. Being on the waiting list doesn't mean you'll get trained. For IFR, you will have to pay your own room and board, in a major city, for up to a year with no paycheck, then you're making ~50k until you check out. VFR and FSS still (for now) get free room and board at NCTI after they pay for tuition, and about 30k and 26k a year while in on-site training.

And yea, what justplanecrazy said sums up the jobs pretty well (and covers flight service specialists as well). As for stress, in my limited experience, training is stressful as hell, the job isn't very until shit really hits the fan. And then you just want to be sick, whether it's your fault or not. And be prepared to really like your job, but hate the company you work for due to the crap they try to pull.

Oh, and if you didn't lie about how much you drink on you initial medical, you sure will on your second.

[DS719]

Thanks for all your help everyone, it is good to know the truth about the job. I am still really not sure what I am going to do but it is great to know all the information before I make a decision.

[FamilyGuy]

ALL ACC's have midnight shifts, so while you "normally" get to sleep in your own bed, it won't be every night or regular hours.

What is stressful is an individual matter. Some trainees puke before everyshift, some controllers drink a little too much. Would you find the following "stressful" or just part of the job?

Its 0300 and you're working alone, buddy is on a break - most likely sleeping. You worked the dayshift earlier that day and didn't get as much sleep as normal because of (insert reason here), so you're seriously draggin your ass right about now.

Your airspace is about 250nm wide by 250 tall. You have all the red-eyes, the trans-pacific and the domestic cargo flights going through your airspace - about 25+ flights in the next 1 to 2 hours. Its a mixed bag of 747's, 737's, 727's and the usual Airbus's. Lots of people sleeping quietly as they make their way where ever - but you don't think about that - they're just targets.

Normally there are 4 or 5 main places that you really have to watch for flights crossing, but tonight the remnants of the earlier severe TS's have planes going pretty much anywhere and everywhere - some of these planes are closing at close to 20 nm a minute - so stay awake!! No time to lose concentration. The only thing keeping these planes apart is you - unless you want to rely on the "automated systems". They only go off as separation is actually being lost - or sometimes not! - "might" save lives, but certainly not careers.

Anyway, its going well - you've caught a couple sneaky conflictions that were not obvious. You run a couple relatively tight crosses (for 3 am anyway) and feel pretty good, relaxed but confident. Coffee/Red Bull must be doing its trick right about now.
As you have your back turned doing other duties, ALARM, ALARM, ALARM - you spin around and start looking for where it is - your heart is in your ears pounding away - WTF did I miss! You have less than 10 secs to find it before TCAS takes over - if the planes are equipped! You finally find it - false alarm in US airspace. That'll be another couple years off your life....but you swear under your breath or outloud, and continue what you were doing. Only 4 more hours to go and then you get to drive home half asleep......

Sound stressful?

[brokenwing]

I only waited about 2 months to get put into a course after initially applying and it was 5 months after that, I started the course. So....it can take a long time to get in. It can be really stressful. It just depends on the kind of person you are.

P.S. According to the new contract. Trainees will only be getting $30 000 per year while On the job training.


Grimey and Family Guy, Do you know if the pay is going to start once you go into sector specific, or is it once you are on the floor?.

[grimey]

I only waited about 2 months to get put into a course after initially applying and it was 5 months after that, I started the course. So....it can take a long time to get in. It can be really stressful. It just depends on the kind of person you are.

P.S. According to the new contract. Trainees will only be getting $30 000 per year while On the job training.


Grimey and Family Guy, Do you know if the pay is going to start once you go into sector specific, or is it once you are on the floor?.

I'm FSS, so I don't know the specifics for IFR. FSS and VFR start getting paid as soon as they arrive at the initial posting (well, 2 week delay, but nothing serious). I was under the impression that the new 30k trainee salary for controllers was in addition to any facility premium though, so that IFR trainees would still get ~50k. I could be wrong.

[justplanecrazy]

GRIMEY...

[grimey]

GRIMEY...

Come on, after NCTI, how could I drop this name?

[FamilyGuy]

Only upon sucessful completion of the training program in the RTU and issuance of said certificate will those trainees become employees goverened by the CBA. Thereafter they will be ATC-0's with a base pay of $30,000 as per the classification award.
Prior to that, pay etc is between the trainee and good ole NC. I wish you all the best of luck.

Hey JPC only 1 place IFR 34/22. How's things

[bigfssguy]

I see a lot of people that are dwelling on the negatives. though a lot of what they are saying ius very true there are a lot of positives to this job. I was a Mine Engineer Tech before doign this and though i liked it i had career prospects of working at between 1-30 mines throughout my career. In ATC and FSS you will have one job til you retire or do something incredibly stupid and get fired. So there you have job security. This is the first job where i wake up in the morning and i look forward to going to work. I actually love my job and i think this is the greatest career in the world. Not to take anything away from the pilots but i can't think of anything else i would rather do. I sit in a green house and watch planes take off and land. There is good pay i am in a northern site in churchill and i make 80-95K, down south you can expect to make 40-60K and we are the low paid ATS. The job is challenging and fun, it can get stressful but it all depends on how you handle it. I'm one of the eternal optumists and i never feel stress even during the big fire in YTH 2003 when i had 14 guys on my board swirling all over the sky and a fire the size of winnipeg 6 miles north.

The job isn't for everyone, some make it and some don't it is a fact of life that there is a very good chance you might get ct'd. You either have the neccesary skills or you don't and unfortunately being a pilot will help you initially but it doesn't make much of a difference once you get into the course. I had 4 pilots and on my course and only 1 made it through but the bakers and miners and pump jockeys made it too. So don;t think just because your a pilot you will be rubber stamped through, arrogance is one sure way to get ct'd. But if you really want a great job making good money and stability put your name in and if you get in work your a$$ off and you will probably make it through. I'm sure for the mass majority of people who went through only a small amount of people will regret it.

[DS719]

Another dumb question but better to ask. Is the US controller market/lifestyle ect. any better than Canada? I have both canadian and U.S citzenship.

[Pygmie]

Can't say a whole lot about the lifestyle, but I can share what I know of the process to get in. To get a job as a controller in the states you have to get a 4 year degree from a University that offers aviation-based degrees (with a specialty in ATC). There are only a couple, and I only know the website for this one http://atc.avit.und.edu/f1_Home/index.php.

Once you have the degree, then you can apply to the FAA for a job. Most get hired, some do not. If you don't, thanks for coming out, you now have a (virtually) useless degree. Once you get hired you get trained by the FAA for a short while, then off to your first posting.

That's one of the other fundemental differences between Nav Canada and the FAA. In the states you always start out at a slow, low traffic center or tower then slowly work your way up to the busier ones. The drawback to that is you'll be bouncing around a bunch in your early years, the benefit is that you have a better chance to succeed. Much higher success rates in the US then in Canada.

The only question now is can you afford the tuition at US universities. Much more expensive to get a career in ATC down there than up here.

EDIT - Forgot to add, the market for controllers in the states right now is HUGE. They need 12,500 contollers to check out nationwide in the next 10 years just to cover their losses to retirements. They need about 3,000 more than that to cover increased demand and current short staffing.

[Caballero]

I've heard of a lot of people making the same switch. Apparently the stress can be high as they say you're responsible for more lives in a single shift than a surgeon is in their entire career. While I dont know how extreme this actually is, there is something to be said for a stable, decent paying career.

[Pygmie]

As far as the stress goes, most controllers I've talked with put it this way:

95% of the time it's a great job, and a great career. It's the other 5% that takes the years off your life. The 5% when the shit hits the fan, when two (or more) planes come too close to each other, or when you have the first casualty on your watch (whether or not it was your fault, it still feels like shit).

There isn't continuous stress in the job. When things are running as they should it's great and most of the controllers I've met so far love what they do, and are proud as hell to do it. From browsing some of these aviation and ATC forums I've been hearing a whole lot of negatives being said about air traffic control as a career and from what I've seen so far in my short time I can say that the very vocal controllers who are bashing the job on some of these forums are not a good indication of the opinions of most controllers out there.

If you're seriously considering a career in Air Traffic Control the best advice I can give you is go visit a tower, or better yet go visit an area control center. Most of the centers and towers across Canada are more than willing to give people interested in a career in ATC a tour of the place. I think when you go you'll see people sitting back with their feet on the desk chatting to each other, not screaming into the radio ripping out their hair like some people make it seem. DO reaserch the career, DO talk to controllers about the job, just DON'T be scared off by the very vocal, very negative minority who tend to visit some of these forums.

Make decisions based on what YOU see and hear, not what you read on the internet.