Dear YKF flight instructors,

This topic has been beaten to death, so my apologies in advance. However, can some of you please explain the rationale behind doing 3-4 mile circuits? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm actually asking you to provide your professional opinion.

I go flying in YKF every so often with my dad in a small plane and doing circuits is near impossible with 3 other planes in the circuit, each 2 miles from the preceding traffic, each on a downwind 3-4 miles from the runway. Because of this hugely generous spacing, tower can't get inbound traffic in the circuit.

If you're any flight instructor who prefers big circuits, feel free to answer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

In addition to flying their aircraft like Boeings
and Airbuses, I have observed their occupants
dressed like the pilots of Boeings and Airbuses,
and pretending to behave like pilots of Boeings
and Airbuses (e.g. using great big thick "how-to"
books to fly a buck fifty).

Coincidence? I think not.

Col,

I knew I'd get you going.

Honestly, I just want an honest answer. Maybe there is some local knowledge I'm missing.

Ironic thing is that amongst the people that
you shared a Boeing-sized circuit with, you
were probably the only person who flies a
Boeing - and found it inappropriate!

Too funny. Went right over the Cargo Cult
member's heads.

I prefer to fly circuits at 500 AGL, circumstances
permitting. Very efficient for the student.

I too am eager to hear from the instructors
who fly Boeing-sized circuits in a buck fifty.

It might have something to do with the 127 items they have on their pre-landing checklist.

Maybe you should show them the 737 checklist... I'm willing to bet it is shorter.

And how about a four-engine bomber?

I've seen them worse than that. Pretty bad when you overwhelm a student with so much information to fly such a basic aircraft. Whatever happened to the learning factor of relationship?

I used to fly out of CYKF about 15 years ago. National Flyer's Academy Katanas used to fly circuits so wide you could fly a Learjet inside. I haven't flown there recently so I can't comment on the current situation. However, it is reminiscent of days gone by. I recall one conversation over the radio at the time:

C172 from WWFC is following a katana in the left hand downwind for runway 32. (I was in a C152, number 3 in the circuit)... As the downwind stretched on to beyond highway 401, this conversation takes place...

C172: Are we following the katana ahead?
Tower: C172 G*** you are number two to the katana ahead in the circuit.
C172: Is he in our circuit????

It felt like the katana was halfway to Hamilton by the time the base leg was turned. I'm exaggerating of course, but it must have been a 3 to 4 mile final. I've always been the sort to keep the circuit tight enough that you could land on the runway if the engine quit (must be the glider pilot background).

They fly Boeing-sized circuits cuz their flight instructors did the same when they did their PPL-CPL and FI course. That's the answer, period. And their instructors flew Boeing-sized circuits cuz their flight instructors did the same when they did their PPL-CPL and FI course. That's the answer, period. Such a shame...

La mouette

When I do checkouts on the checklist monkeys,
I pull the throttle to idle on downwind abeam
the runway threshold. If they can't make the
runway, they need to change their circuit.

An excessively large circuit is objectively less
safe than a circuit which permits gliding to the
runway.

This is not an academic concern. A friend of
mine had an internal engine failure turning
base. Because he was taught to fly by an
instructor that didn't update his facebook
status on downwind, he was able to glide
to the runway.

This is even a flight test item on the CPL
now (power-off 180). The nationwide
performance on it is miserable, I am told
and it's not hard to see why.

I've been on a lot of C/C type circuits there. Actually came very close to Guelph on one circuit to 26.

Pull back to 90 Kias, patiently wait, look out the window, and log CC time.....

Is it time for this relevant video again?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6q2VKsvQEQ

Pretty bad when you overwhelm a student with so much information to fly such a basic aircraft. Whatever happened to the learning factor of relationship?

I'm fighting the good fight on that one. I have
instructor candidates come to me with TWENTY
PAGE PGI's. I am not making this up.

My father refers to this as "Death by Briefing".

You do NOT need TWENTY FRIKKEN PAGES of
notes, to teach PGI for say a steep turn. When
you start to discuss the origin of the Universe,
Special Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, the
PGI just might - just might - be going into too
much detail.

KEEP IT SIMPLE, SMART GUYS

Students are not going to remember each
of the 178 different things that you are going
to try to tell them, in your PGI which lasts
and hour and a half.

PGI notes should fit on ONE PAGE. Ok, maybe
both sides for the more complicated exercises.
And they should only contain important stuff
which you don't want to forget to mention.

And for God's sake, turf the stupid checklists.
Do a simple cockpit flow check of the three
things you need to check and LOOK OUTSIDE.

can some of you please explain the rationale behind doing 3-4 mile circuits?

To make more money and log more hours in the logbook.

I don't see it makes any difference: an hour of circuits is an hour of circuits, no matter how large they are.

Number of takeoffs and landings per hour, which is why we are usually doing circuits in the first place.

I'm with CS, I love doing 500 ft circuits.

Even better is doing teardrops at 500ft and doing touch and goes on opposite runways each time.

Even better yet.... hover drill in a seaplane. You can do it in a land plane with a long enough runway too. No better way to get that step attitude dialed in... and just play with the power as you set her down and bring her up again repeatedly.

photofly wrote:I don't see it makes any difference: an hour of circuits is an hour of circuits, no matter how large they are.

One would fly more hours until the student learns to land if they fly larger circuits as opposed to tighter circuits.

iflyforpie wrote: Even better yet.... hover drill in a seaplane. You can do it in a land plane with a long enough runway too. No better way to get that step attitude dialed in... and just play with the power as you set her down and bring her up again repeatedly.

I did that at CYHM, once - 9000' runway.

Tower (after the fourth circuit, and in a disapproving tone): "GXXX I've just discussed this with my supervisor and you know you're supposed to ask for multiple touch-and-goes, if that's what you want to do."

Me: "GXXX requests multiple touch and goes."

Tower: "That's approved."

So were were all friends again.

iflyforpie wrote: I'm with CS, I love doing 500 ft circuits.

Isn't that -strictly speaking- illegal ? (the 500 ft part)

500 foot circuits are perfectly legal.

In fact, they are required when
doing circuits in controlled airspace and
the ceiling is 1000 AGL.

Nowhere in the CARs is an altitude or
dimension specified for a circuit. You
could do it at 10 feet with the downwind
500 feet laterally spaced from the runway.

Or you could do it at 10,000 feet with the
downwind 100 miles laterally spaced from
the runway.

Colonel Sanders wrote: Nowhere in the CARs is an altitude or
dimension specified for a circuit. You
could do it at 10 feet with the downwind
500 feet laterally spaced from the runway.

Speaking from experience, that can be tricky when your Tower controller is a former flight instructor who thinks she knows better.

It's amazing, how many people think
the AIM is regulatory. It is not.

You can only be charged with contravening
the CARs. If it does not prohibit it, it is
therefore permitted.

This really is not rocket science.

PS Initials KF? Familiar with her.

Coming from working both as a Flight instructor and as a captain on a king air and other multi engine aircraft,
SIMPLIFY CHECKLISTS!
Flows are better because they teach efficiency and its easier for student to learn what will be expected out on the line working for carriers. Flows then checklists...just like emergency procedures.
As for the circuits as per the AIM the circuits heights are a recommendation, but for God's sake think of other aircraft trying to accomplish the same thing. Keep it tight and follow the right entry.

I taught at CYHU for over 5 yrs and we could fit up to 8 aircraft in circuit on 24L and 4 on 24R...I recently taught over at CEz3 in Edmonton and aircraft were having issues following correct entry procedures for uncontrolled airports...Fortunately enough after several meetings with regular flyers in the area things are better now...

Also I wanna mention if you're an instructor, theres more satisfaction in getting a student to be competent in less hours than it is to stretch it out... It's rewarding for everyone.


Happy flying and keep those circuits tight!!!!

Cheers!

Even better is doing teardrops at 500ft and doing touch and goes on opposite runways each time.

Agreed, throw in a strong tailwind or crosswind in a tail dragger, alternate two-pointers and three-pointers with a full glide from power reduction and you have a heck of a lot of practice going on per minute of flight!