Entering DME hold

[800man]

If asked by atc, for example, to hold between 10 and 15 dme from a vor, are you expected to proceed to the fix first, then go outbound till 15 dme and begin the hold or do you go direct to the 10 dme point, not going to the fix first?

Thanks!

[photofly]

You're going to be asked to hold on a particular radial; it should be obvious from your clearance how you get to that radial, and therefore how you enter the hold.

[800man]

Thanks for the reply, I don't know if I made my question clear though....
If you are to hold at a point 10 dme away from the fix, do you go direct to that 10 dme point from your present position, and enter the hold there, or would you go to the fix first, then fly outbound along the radial until you get to the dme distance?

[Forestdump]

The10 dme on a specified radial is the fix. Go there. From a practical point of view the radial and dme will be on your route. As an example there is a published hold east of YEG at CAMRA. This can be located old school at the 083 radial for 50 miles. If for some reason you are using the preferred IFR route into CYEG from the East you might be on V302. You could be asked to hold East of CAMRA as published. Ask ATC for 5 mile legs. You won't get anywhere near the VOR, at least not for a while.

[photofly]

Thanks for the reply, I don't know if I made my question clear though....
If you are to hold at a point 10 dme away from the fix, do you go direct to that 10 dme point from your present position, and enter the hold there, or would you go to the fix first, then fly outbound along the radial until you get to the dme distance?

How are you going to go to 10 DME from your present position? What *is* your present position, in this scenario?

[sstaurus]

Thanks for the reply, I don't know if I made my question clear though....
If you are to hold at a point 10 dme away from the fix, do you go direct to that 10 dme point from your present position, and enter the hold there, or would you go to the fix first, then fly outbound along the radial until you get to the dme distance?

How are you going to go to 10 DME from your present position? What *is* your present position, in this scenario?

Unless ATC assumes you can plot a 10dme distance point in your gps (if you have one) how would you navigate direct to it? I think You'd have to either go to the navaid first, then track to the dme point. Or intercept track first, then to the dme point as applicable.

[AuxBatOn]

Point-to-point navigation. Did it with old school instrument and got within 0.2NM consistently. No GPS.

[800man]

Thanks, I was wondering the same- about how to go from an arbitrary initial position (not over the vor) to the dme fix using just a vor and dme, I could do it easily enough by taking a bearing to the point using the LO chart, but it may not be the prettiest.

Anyhow, so far the consensus is it depends on the clearance?

[photofly]

Point-to-point navigation. Did it with old school instrument and got within 0.2NM consistently. No GPS.

Right. But holding an IR doesn't require that kind of skill.

Thanks, I was wondering the same- about how to go from an arbitrary initial position (not over the vor) to the dme fix using just a vor and dme, I could do it easily enough by taking a bearing to the point using the LO chart, but it may not be the prettiest.

Anyhow, so far the consensus is it depends on the clearance?

I don't think your clearance will ever require you to go point-to-point. If given a DME hold it will be on a radial you're already on, or on a radial on to which you've already been cleared with normal navigation. So it should be obvious at the time how to enter the hold.

[Docbrad]

Once you get out of the training phase, you realize ATC do not complicate things (on purpose). If I was at the arbitrary point and clears to hold on a random radial at 10DME ect, and it isn't a GPS waypoint, I would simply ask for something easier.

Remember, its a clearence, not an instruction. You're allowed to say no if you can't do it

[vrrotate]

Heard a pretty funny exchange on centre the other day which kinda shows how much we have become accustomed to using gps. I'm paraphrasing from how I remember it.

Pilot: Centre can we have a new clearance? Our GPS doesn't allow us to input victor airways.

ATC: it says here that you have standard equipment. Are you standard?

Pilot: Yes

ATC: Then use your VOR.



I think my passengers were wondering what I was laughing so hard at.

I have become very accustomed to my FMS now and really would have no desire to fly commercially without one. Makes holds a no brained that's for sure.

Anyway as was said it should be fairly evident from the clearance what to do but the obvious answer is yes go straight to the point. Can't do that? Then intercept the radial prior to the point. Maybe the point is on the other side over the navaid? Then sure go to the navaid then to the point. Easy solution just tell ATC what is easiest for you or what you want to do. Controllers don't want to give you a hold. They know we are wasting time and gas so from my experience they are very accommodating with requests when it comes to holds.

Gus

[Big Pistons Forever]

Every airplane is "Radar Vector Equiped"

[trampbike]

Point-to-point navigation. Did it with old school instrument and got within 0.2NM consistently. No GPS.

It'll never happen outside of a MTCA however!

Thanks, I was wondering the same- about how to go from an arbitrary initial position (not over the vor) to the dme fix using just a vor and dme, I could do it easily enough by taking a bearing to the point using the LO chart, but it may not be the prettiest.

That is what a point-to-point nav is all about. You don't even need a map to do it, especially if you have a HSI. Use it like it's a map, and scale it with your DME. You won't get that kind of clearance in the civilian world.I 'm not even sure it would be legal to do it without a RNAV equiped aircraft.
They do it all the time in military training though, either to get to a holding fix or to fly around the pattern to get on the arc to intercept the LOC.

Related thread (see davecessna questions): http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =3&t=94611

[frozen solid]

I've never encountered that "point to point" trick with the HSI you mentioned in your other thread. I'll have to give it a shot someday in recurrent training.

Huh. You learn something every day.

[AuxBatOn]

Trambike,

I had to do it in the Hornet in Calgary. Worked like a charm.

[Rockie]

Trambike,

I had to do it in the Hornet in Calgary. Worked like a charm.

Interesting. When the controller looks at your strip what tells him you are RNAV capable to navigate direct to a radial/DME without an FMS? Named waypoints you can enter the lat/long and be on your way but I'm not sure of the legality of "RNAV'ing" it to a radial/DME in civilian airspace using dead reckoning, which is essentially what point to points are.

Of course the CAR's do not apply to military aircraft, does CFP 100 or operational orders cover this situation? It didn't when I was in.

[careerpilot?]

Point-to-point navigation. Did it with old school instrument and got within 0.2NM consistently. No GPS.

It'll never happen outside of a MTCA however!

Thanks, I was wondering the same- about how to go from an arbitrary initial position (not over the vor) to the dme fix using just a vor and dme, I could do it easily enough by taking a bearing to the point using the LO chart, but it may not be the prettiest.

That is what a point-to-point nav is all about. You don't even need a map to do it, especially if you have a HSI. Use it like it's a map, and scale it with your DME. You won't get that kind of clearance in the civilian world.I 'm not even sure it would be legal to do it without a RNAV equiped aircraft.
They do it all the time in military training though, either to get to a holding fix or to fly around the pattern to get on the arc to intercept the LOC.

Related thread (see davecessna questions): http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =3&t=94611

A certain AOI instructor in Moose Jaw with the initials D.K. once told me he did a point to point when he flew commercial jets (I think it was an old 707?). He requested the clearance from ATC to avoid a significant routing detour, and they let him do it. Ask him about it!

[Big Pistons Forever]

If asked by atc, for example, to hold between 10 and 15 dme from a vor, are you expected to proceed to the fix first, then go outbound till 15 dme and begin the hold or do you go direct to the 10 dme point, not going to the fix first?

Thanks!

I actually got that clearance on a training flight (simulated IFR in VMC conditions in terminal airspace) last month. Terminal wanted us out of the way so they gave us a hold at 5 DME on a specific radial. We pointed the aircraft in the generally correct direction on the GPS moving map while the student entered a user waypoint defined by the bearing and waypoint.

It was a good exercise in situational awareness and using the full Garmin 430 functionality. However this was not a real world scenario IMO and I have personally I can not recall ever being given a real world IFR hold clearance that was not either at a published hold, or on the present direct track to the fix/nav aid.

Holds are a good training manoever as you have to keep multiple balls in the air at the same time and things happen relatively quickly, just don't confuse it with a real world everyday skill. In the real world holds are less and less common and most of the IFR flight training pedantry related to holds is operationally irrelevant.

[AuxBatOn]

Rockie,

What exactly is illegal about navigating to a VOR/DME fix using solely the VOR/DME?

It'll be a moot point soon anyways, we're getting RNAV in the Hornet (we were supposed since 2009...)

[trampbike]

A certain AOI instructor in Moose Jaw with the initials D.K. once told me he did a point to point when he flew commercial jets (I think it was an old 707?). He requested the clearance from ATC to avoid a significant routing detour, and they let him do it. Ask him about it!

I have no doubt it happened/could happen, it's just very unlikely during most civilian flights.

I'm not sure but I think that the FAA doesn't allow anymore point-to-point navigation for non-RNAV equiped aircraft.

[Youngback]

Point to point navigation on an HSI is easy to understand but hard to describe. When I get back to Canada I will post the instruction guide that I've got for it.

I will try to describe the basic procedure. Imagine you are 20nm north of a fix heading south and ATC asks you to go to a 10nm point directly east if the fix. You view your HSI as an overhead view of your flight. The outer edge of the HSI becomes 20nm. Imagine yourself at the bottom of the HSI ring. 10nm is half of your imaginary distance from the outer edge of the HSI (20nm being your distance on the outer ring.) In this case east will be on the left side of the HSI. Draw a line (imaginary of course) from the bottom point of the HSI (where you are) to the halfway point between the outer edge and centre of the HSI (where you want to be) along the 090 line. Move the line parallel sideway until it is over the centre of the HSI. Then continue this line straight across until it hits the outer edge of the HSI again. This is your heading to take. Your heading in this case would be roughly 155 degrees.

Scale the HSI as you need it. If your target is 1/4 of your distance, place it at 1/4 of your imaginary distance on the HSI. I hope I've confused everyone thoroughly.

[trampbike]

Here is my take on it, from this thread http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =3&t=94611:

Picture your aircraft on the tail of the bearing pointer, with the VOR/DME station in the middle. Then the outer rink of your HSI will be the highest DME of your 2 points. With that air picture you can see where you are, and where you are going relative to the station. You then translate the track to the middle of the HSI to find the heading you need to fly.

Let me give you a simple example:

You are on the 180R at 50 DME, you want to go to the 090R at 25 DME.
The station is in the middle of your HSI, you are down at the tail, on the outer rink (since it's the largest) DME.
The point where you want to go is on the 090R, halfway between the center (station) and the outer rink (50 DME in this case).
Imagine a line joining these two points.
Now translate this line to the center of the HSI, you can find an approximate track you need to fly.
In this case it's around 26 degrees.

Let's say we had the same radials as previously, but you are at 25 DME and the point you want to go on 090R is at 50 DME.
Then your aircraft is halfway between the station and the outer rink, on the 180R, and the point you want to go to is on the outer rink on the 090R.
In this case you should find you need to fly on approximately a 64 degrees track.

[SAR_YQQ]

Point-to-point//Fix-to-fix are great basic IFR training tools --> that being said, not very practical in the modern IF world. FAA prohibits them without basically have the RNAV capabilities to do it via your FMS. Never done one in anger post-wings. Never really going to be in a position where ATC will stumble and ask that I go to a radial/dme without overflying the VORTAC first. Controllers don't particularly enjoy them - as they imply some guess work in where we are flying - not fun in congested airspace.

[photofly]

Point to point navigation on an HSI is easy to understand but hard to describe. When I get back to Canada I will post the instruction guide that I've got for it.

I will try to describe the basic procedure. Imagine you are 20nm north of a fix heading south and ATC asks you to go to a 10nm point directly east if the fix. You view your HSI as an overhead view of your flight. The outer edge of the HSI becomes 20nm. Imagine yourself at the bottom of the HSI ring. 10nm is half of your imaginary distance from the outer edge of the HSI (20nm being your distance on the outer ring.) In this case east will be on the left side of the HSI. Draw a line (imaginary of course) from the bottom point of the HSI (where you are) to the halfway point between the outer edge and centre of the HSI (where you want to be) along the 090 line. Move the line parallel sideway until it is over the centre of the HSI. Then continue this line straight across until it hits the outer edge of the HSI again. This is your heading to take. Your heading in this case would be roughly 155 degrees.

Scale the HSI as you need it. If your target is 1/4 of your distance, place it at 1/4 of your imaginary distance on the HSI. I hope I've confused everyone thoroughly.

Here's another take on it:

[Lost Lake]

What really scares me about this whole scenario is the original question. When asked to hold 10 to 15 DME from a fix, should they fly to the fix first. WTF then fly to the DME point!!!!! Please don't fly in my airspace. Simply put, there is probably traffic near the fix and they don't want you near it. Where is aviation going????