WJ now with AC

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:23 pm

I would like to congradulate the two WJ pilots who made it to AC on the current course. Smart move. More to come.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:46 pm

Nice shot, but for the "high-timers" who aren't jumping anywhere, a vacancy in the bigs means the experience pool in our environment dries up.

More cash for us.

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:58 pm

were these not guys that were on furlough from ac in the first place? I think they were.

Was it agood move going to ac first for that financial blow and moral letdown? Don't wish that on anyone. Glad WJ could help them out for awhile.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:55 pm

Flightlevels.
Na. Sorry. If they were originally with AC they wouldn't be in the initial course. They would be in the sim renewing their types. I also hear that the resume pool is full of WJ people. Glad we can help out. Hey guys look, there's nothing wrong with this. In the world of apples and oranges, we all have a choice. Either would be a good choice in my view. Both places seem to be enjoying good times right now. Still it will be interesting though, when WJ hires, how many AC people will make that choice.

twinpratts · Post by **twinpratts** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:32 pm

GIMME A FRIGGIN JOB, already...

Flywest · Post by **Flywest** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:10 pm

No Sh*t

Flapsforty · Post by **Flapsforty** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:24 pm

Which type are these Wj new hires at AC going on?

Cheers

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:11 pm

I think just about all the new hires are Embraer F/Os. Apparently a lot of the recalls are taking RP spot. Dozin' for dollars!

Canus Chinookus · Post by **Canus Chinookus** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:20 pm

If switching to AC floats their boat, all the power to them. I, however, wouldn't touch AC with a pole the wingspan of the 340.

whiteguy · Post by **whiteguy** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:35 pm

Flightlevels wrote:were these not guys that were on furlough from ac in the first place? I think they were. Was it agood move going to ac first for that financial blow and moral letdown? Don't wish that on anyone. Glad WJ could help them out for awhile.

Anybody that was on furlough from AC and went to WJ had to resign before WJ would hire them.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:21 pm

whiteguy wrote:Anybody that was on furlough from AC and went to WJ had to resign before WJ would hire them.

Not to add fuel to the ol' AC vs. WJ debate, BUT... does that in itself not smack of some insecurity? If WJ was so confident in their superiority, why would they ever need fear the defection of any of their employees?

B612 · Post by **B612** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:05 pm

Canus et al: Mark your words. You may follow Clive the Good for now but soon you will realize why so many aviators in Canada feel such strong emotion against the WJ model. As a growing company WJ has felt some perks and not been subject to many of the negatives that AC has. Wait until the stock options aren't worth anything, the shares tank again and you guys learn the hard way just how risky your "pay" is. Wait until upgrades are not in this lifetime and lets see how the morale is. That is the selling point after all, isn't it? WJ is a minor player in the big picture, you just think otherwise. Imagine how good it will feel in 20 years as an F/O on the NG, still going to Fort McMurray for peanuts (that is if you can afford to bring expensive snacks). AC is far from perfect but offers experience, career expectations and salary that WJ simply can't. A 20 year f/o at AC will be making more than WJ captains and will have seen the world on big airplanes. Such distaste for AC is very shortsighted and diluted with koolaid.

Flapsforty · Post by **Flapsforty** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:34 pm

B612,

Hey Mister!

Listen, AC is not for everybody, for several reasons, just as WJ is not for everybody. Don't assume that everyone else has the same goals and needs as you. If a guy wants to be at AC and that's the cats ass for him so be it. If the guy wants WJ or whoever so be it. Live and let live.

Cheers

Canus Chinookus · Post by **Canus Chinookus** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:39 pm

B612, ask the AC employees how secure their jobs and high wages are... ask them how their pension is doing... Yep, that's the place to be!

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:54 pm

Like I said earlier, it's apples and oranges. As a kid, I dreamed about flying a widebody across the pond. I'm living my dream at AC. Not everyone shares the same dream. Some are just happy to fly a nice plane for a good outfit. In the end we will all end up where destiny takes us. The sad part is that some have excess baggage in life. Have a look at what Canus has to say. I don't get it. A company that is a good place to work for should never be put down. Despite what some may think, AC is still an excellent company to work for under a very professional environment. So is WJ. Just a different business model, that's all. For those who failed to make it to AC or never even wanted to try, I urge you to be happy where you are but at the same time, back up any beefs you have against AC with some facts and not just some miserable, brainless comments.
Canus. Let me answer some of your questions. Having survived CCAA which never really should have been called for in the first place, and given the fact that AC employees once again passed the test, I'd say our jobs are more secure than ever. If you don't work here, you don't understand that. Despite salary cuts, we still enjoy the highest salaries, on average in the land. And by the way, I just received my pension statement today telling me I will make at least $72000 a yr in retirement, which by the way is the lowest at AC since I won't have the full 25 yrs. Cheers dude.

B612 · Post by **B612** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:31 pm

Wow some people are really out of touch. CC, if you think for one second that AC's pension plan or job security is worse than at WJ right now than the koolaid is stronger than even Clive intended. AC's money has come down, for sure, thanks to the lowest common denominator. But they still make more than WJ. And you still didn't answer my questions.

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:25 pm

tonysoprano wrote:Flightlevels.
Na. Sorry. If they were originally with AC they wouldn't be in the initial course. They would be in the sim renewing their types. I also hear that the resume pool is full of WJ people. Glad we can help out. Hey guys look, there's nothing wrong with this. In the world of apples and oranges, we all have a choice. Either would be a good choice in my view. Both places seem to be enjoying good times right now. Still it will be interesting though, when WJ hires, how many AC people will make that choice.

I just had a conversation with one of them and he isn't on the 550 and not going back on his original type either...do you really think ac would be that smart to keep a guy on one type and save the training cash? na nothing has changed. If you are on property now you will be ok as you have seemed to brag about with pension, newcomers different story. I see the ego has returned even though the CCAA has just passed. you must be proud of that.

Canus Chinookus · Post by **Canus Chinookus** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:59 pm

oh, silly me, last I checked, the AC pension was BILLIONS in debt. Like I said earlier, to each his own, if you're happy at AC, all the power to you. But if you want to bash WJ, I'll be more than happy to return the volley at big red.

cheers.

B612 · Post by **B612** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:15 am

I'm glad you're happy at WJ, I don't deny you that. It was you that made the negative remark towards AC first, don't forget. I might suggest reading the Business section for other items than your falling stock prices. You'd discover that there is a major problem for pension plans all over the place. Why you're slagging AC for that is not logical. PPlans are regulated and there are minimum guarantees. Most AC guys in retirement are making more than you are while flying the line. Is that what this is about?

Canus Chinookus · Post by **Canus Chinookus** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:32 am

HAHA! whatever you say, boss. Maybe you need to reread the thread.

b767jetmec · Post by **b767jetmec** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:45 am

Canus Chinookus wrote:B612, ask the AC employees how secure their jobs and high wages are... ask them how their pension is doing... Yep, that's the place to be!

Well, I`m an AC employee, Tech Ops albiet. Canus you asked so I will tell you what I`ve lost:

-The 200 hour time bank
-the new company sick days policy
-the end of pension indexation (for all those fans of the defined benefit plan, make sure you understand what the repercutions of a non indexed pension plan are before you think your pension plan is so great!!)
-the reduction of vacation
-No more paid lunch
-no more lunch paid on O/T
-O/T at time and a half instead of double time
-the worst anti sub-contracting language ever seen in a collective aggreement(the IAM has tried to fight the subcontracting that AC is doing but it's contract is so badly written that at each attempt they have failed to prevent AC from sending out the work)
-the unequal salary cuts given to the employees(no more night premiums,no more inspector pay, no more longetivity pay)
-straight time when travelling(makes outside assignments so much more interesting)
-Straight time when training

Just to name a few things. I went from $83G pre CCAA to $68G post CCAA. However, some have earned millions on our backs. Sorry, I know this thread was pilot related, but I thought I`d let you all know how other departments have faired.

Canus Chinookus · Post by **Canus Chinookus** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:01 pm

don't be sorry, man. You are allowed to have a voice too. :/

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:20 am

Flightlevels.
Some are not returning to their original equipment for many reasons, not necessarily a bad move for the company. We have new seats to fill (Emb) but rest assured most are going back to where they were. As for your friend not on the 550 course, thanks for confirming that he is not on the initial course being originally with AC. And as for new hires, it doesn't look promissing anywhere you start these days. But look at the long term. That's where the difference is. The days of becoming wealthy at WJ thanks to your stock are over. Anyone starting out now will have to play the lottery or go to the casino for that dream. Funny how when we try to answer with some positive news about AC, the bitterness comes out of some people with that EGO comment. Grow up.

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:13 am

tonysoprano wrote:Flightlevels.
Some are not returning to their original equipment for many reasons, not necessarily a bad move for the company. We have new seats to fill (Emb) but rest assured most are going back to where they were. As for your friend not on the 550 course, thanks for confirming that he is not on the initial course being originally with AC. And as for new hires, it doesn't look promissing anywhere you start these days. But look at the long term. That's where the difference is. The days of becoming wealthy at WJ thanks to your stock are over. Anyone starting out now will have to play the lottery or go to the casino for that dream. Funny how when we try to answer with some positive news about AC, the bitterness comes out of some people with that EGO comment. Grow up.

Why can you assume that I'm not wealthy or you will never be at WJ...do ya need to be? are you? you just took a 180 degree turn from saying that they will go on original types and so on...enlighten the new pilot here on the new pension rules and base pays for the ERJ. How did this turn into a WJ vs AC thread anyway. Can you guarantee a long term at AC? No. nor can I at WJ. AC is burning the furniture and pissing the money away again in asset sales and it will be just a matter of time until the cycle comes full circle and you can tell the fellows that "hey it is the future here that matters when the layoff notice comes" my good buddy just finished framing houses for 2 yrs...thanks AC. Not sure if you want to elude to who makes more pissing contest, but it sure seems you a leaning that way.....hmmmm. ya grow up. Nobody gives a hoot if your dream was to fly across the pond on this forum or wheather you are hopefully gonna make 70k/yr on pension. Just remember to release the parkbrake early and get on the payrole tony.

btw I was sincere in saying glad we could help them out...

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:16 am

I was on a course when the class with the WJ guys was there. We ended up talking alot during the breaks. In another thread I had posted that these guys were very interesting but nobody picked up on it. By the way, they are not furloughed AC guys.

I welcomed them to AC and asked how they were liking it. Then we got to talking about WJ and what came out next nearly made me choke on my coffee!

This is another Kool Aid statement I know but It is coming from former West Jetters, not me. They went on to say how nice it was that at AC, time isn't spent bashing the competition. I said huh? They went on to explain that there is a lot of AC bashing going on at Westjet where as at AC, they could care less about Westjet.

Take it for what its worth but this about the 10th time I have heard this from 10 different sources all of whom either work or have worked for Westjet. I do not understand the insecurity.