Paradrop Navajo crash in Poland July 05

[andy_mtl]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... leven-dead

See the attached news link.

I have over 1000 drops in a Navajo, and I m wondering what the hell went thru the pilot s mind taking up 12 people.

We had our certified with 11 including pilot and provided weight and balance worked for the flight, and even with 11 it behaves like a dog with wings.
If the last person then decided to go and stretch beyond the door in the "cargo area" well then you re almost out of trim.
And to put 12 that's the only place left to put that 12 person.
Looking forward reading the actual report on this .

Any other paradrop pilot has an input on this?

Cheers
Andy

[SuperchargedRS]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/g ... =138692668

[PilotDAR]

Care is require to not generalize, but my experience has been that para drop ops seek to fill the plane. I stopped flying for the operator I used to fly with, because they virtually insisted on overloading. The fact that a plane can carry X weight does not mean that it should.

In my opinion, jumpers are partly responsible for this. In a small way perhaps, as they may not know what should be happening in the plane, but it is their safety, they should learn. It would be nice if student parachutist training included loading awareness. Jumpers be prepared to pay to ride in a properly loaded plane = more $ to cover that one or two additional people not being carried so the weight is right.

I have stated in the past that when the jump master walks out to the plane with their jumpers, they should be carrying for the pilot a loading manifests, with actual scale weights for each jumper, as they just stepped out the door equipped. That manifest would already know the aircraft empty weight, the pilot weight, and the 1/4 tanks weight. The sum of the jumpers just becomes a very simple go - no go. If a jumper is boarding a plane without having their weight reported to the pilot, can they have any assurance that the plane is properly loaded?

And when a cabin full of people takes the C of G behind the aft limit, aircraft handling can get really non compliant.... Rare is the cabin that you can stuff with people to the back, and the C of G remains in limits....

[andy_mtl]

Hey pilotdar,

When did you fly jumpers last?
Now we have a manifest software that on top of telling you the list of people , it gives you your weight, fuel, and center of gravity.
Now they should all sit in order as manifested , in order for the weight and balance to be 110% correct.
Sometimes one moves place but still it's a great tool versus the old style piece of paper with all their names.
It's a bit of a pain to set a plane in the system tho for the first time, but in the long run it's worth it.


Andy

[PilotDAR]

Thanks Andy, it has been a while since I flew jumpers. I am delighted to hear that things are better!

[andy_mtl]

Actually yesterday ctv news came to my drop zone to do a reportage on safety of skydiving.
Following what happened in Toronto this week end.

http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=393592

If the link works.

Andy

[pdw]

The aviation side on average looks to be as risky as the jump itself, when looking at the number of lives this airplane crash has claimed at once.

[PilotDAR]

My last jump flight, (by my choice) though I had yet to decide when I landed, was the Saturday before the Sunday when a nice female jumper I had met, impaled herself on a wooden fence post (I was told - I did not investigate at all). Though that accident had nothing to do with aviation safety in terms of airplanes, that was it for me. The overloading I was expected to fly had always bothered me, that fatality was my limit.

There have been three more fatalities at that drop zone since (in the last year), but I make no statement about who, how or why. It's just too close to home for me. I fly by regularly, but have not flown back in since - my choice.....

I can't imagine losing a Navajo full of jumpers......

[pdw]

Neither can the authorities in this tragedy. From the news articles, looks like it will be an extensive investigation.

[andy_mtl]

I personally never jumped my self I m terrified of the idea.
However!

I was born and raised in Italy, wanna go have a look on Monday morning in the news how many teens were killed in scooters ( moped 50cc ) over the week end? I m sure in one week end we can match the amount of deaths in Canada due to a skydiving accident, probably since the beginning.

Everything has it's risk.
Skydiving becomes dangerous when people start swooping and proximity wing suiting.
Otherwise it's really pretty fool proof.

Andy

[pdw]

I was born and raised in Italy, wanna go have a look on Monday morning in the news how many teens were killed in scooters ( moped 50cc ) over the week end? I m sure in one week end we can match the amount of deaths in Canada due to a skydiving accident, probably since the beginning.

Training for the skydivers is generally very regimented. What type of training requirement would there be for teens on scooters ?

About this aircraft accident:
The engine noises changed before crashing ... ie the drone of the engine was different before the ground impact. Is that from more power being added as climb-rate fails ?
(Being so low and with the low climbrate, IMO there's also the prop-pitch adjusting.)

[andy_mtl]

Normally you would reduce to
2400 rpm
36.5 inches on narrow case or 39.5inches on wide case engines( tho most for paradrop would use 36.5)
Maybe he slammed everything forward once he realized he couldn't climb out?

Training for skydivers involves 20 mins wind tunnel and 10 jumps.
It's not as intense as someone may think.

Andy

[pdw]

Maybe he slammed everything forward once he realized he couldn't climb out?

Accident approx 4pm July 5th 2014 "1.8NM from the airport". Witnesses say "came from south" and "flying low over houses before impact; landed right wing first" (news article).

Judging by a 4pm metar just west of the field, using 08 may look as appealing as 26 when windsock is south-flow (break-even X-wind for 08/26 at that airport about that time /1009 -1010 hPa.

And what's the timing of the MP adjustment? Turning northerly in early climb after the rotation (heavy aircraft) is soon entering a considerably strengthening 'downwind air' with height (turns into a decay prone climb) if the EPKT METARS due south are any indication and climb-rate is already minimum.

[Diadem]

Maybe he slammed everything forward once he realized he couldn't climb out?

Accident approx 4pm July 5th 2014 "1.8NM from the airport". Witnesses say "came from south" and "flying low over houses before impact; landed right wing first" (news article).

Judging by a 4pm metar just west of the field, using 08 may look as appealing as 26 when windsock is south-flow (break-even X-wind for 08/26 at that airport about that time /1009 -1010 hPa.

And what's the timing of the MP adjustment? Turning northerly in early climb after the rotation (heavy aircraft) is soon entering a considerably strengthening 'downwind air' with height (turns into a decay prone climb) if the EPKT METARS due south are any indication and climb-rate is already minimum.

Or maybe they were just overweight...

[pdw]

Absolutely, as long as that (the supreme knowledge of that fact) doesn't succeed in hiding why this time a crash and not at other times before.

[andy_mtl]

Alright so , about the over weight:
You can go with 10 jumpers plus pilot for a total of 11 using standard weights less the carry on.
If you have the VGs stc that will increase your MTOW to 6840lbs.


So here what I think it happened,
After rotation, once he or she retracted the gear realized that he probably needed full nose down on the elevator , so as a reaction he or she retracted the flaps at a too low of a speed and they started sinking.

If they were carrying 11 plus pilot, there would be literally no space to sit the 12th but in the tail.
Having that 150 to 200lbs will put ur already aft maxed out centre of gravity well beyond what the plane can take.
Gear down pulls your nose down and the flaps pulls your nose up easy enough.
Already when you go at 10 you really feel the need to push and hard on your elevator to maintain positive control, untill when you retract the flaps then you re more in control.

Sometimes when they used to do big ways out the Navajo, I would lower the gear on jump run to make it easier to control with a few people hanging off the door, and it always worked out fine.

I hope to hear more about this from the survival, if anyone has news please post them.

Cheers,
Andy

[pdw]

So here what I think it happened,
After rotation, once he or she retracted the gear realized that he probably needed full nose down on the elevator , so as a reaction he or she retracted the flaps at a too low of a speed and they started sinking.

"Too low of a speed" ... was a low climb rate (heavy) to begin with.

I hope to hear more about this from the survival ....

Not sure what the survivor's perspective could yield that isn't already known, to help the investigation. With the idea this aircraft just got a bit slow for the conditions, every bit of factual info about the take-off environment, ie in addition to a prevailing "overweight" estimation by some, is part of it. Still no takeoff direction given ... likely 08 (09T) with very gradual early left turnout, a further limitation to climbrate/angle and airspeed-increase here where a sock shows southerly but light, and not suspect to any risk for a lift/thrust problem. The heading is northerly (witness: "it came from south" into the crash).

Takeoff on 26 from local Wx-history would-be also a right turnout into a downwind direction while climbing flatter into increasing downwind strength, ie longer downdraft periods when chasing the increasing gust strengths (with rising altitude) where-as it's steeper and shorter if the climb-turn is upwind in the identical scenario.

[cj75]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... leven-dead
Any other paradrop pilot has an input on this?

I fly a skydive Navajo. It has VGs for the MTOW increase to 6840. I take a maximum of 10 jumpers. If its a hot day and the jumpers look big I only take 9. 12 is at least 2 too many IMO. With the C of G at aft limits the pitch stability is "not real good" on my airplane.

CJ