How Much Wouls You Pay.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:51 pm

How much would you pay for a PPC on a bigger airplane. Let's say there was a full motion Level D simulator located in Canada and a pilot could go and get a PPC on it. No job promises or anything like that. Just training. $18,000 comes to mind. Flight Safety and Simuflight charges around $13,500 US for a Be 350 endorsement. Plus living expenses for 12 to 14 days in Dallas or Witchata. Plus plus. Lots of hoops to jump through and lots of startup capital but!!!!

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:59 pm

12k for the 90
15k for the 200
18k for the 350

Vancouver, Winnipeg and Toronto locations..
All prices in Canadian.

Cheers. =)

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:37 pm

Fish, Fish..

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:41 pm

$0.00

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:14 pm

just another pilot wrote:$0.00

How much did you pay for your license?

FA28 guy · Post by **FA28 guy** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:14 am

I just want to add one historical fact. Carl Milard the slave driver of Canadian Aviation deceided that after some of his pilots jumped ship to go work for AC or CP or ND or WD he would charge for the training. He used to charge $10,000.00 for the DC4 edorsment and the pilot had to work for one year at minimum wage. This was the late 60's on. Most of those pilots are now senior airline pilots with AC. was it worth the money?

Something to think about.

skudrunner · Post by **skudrunner** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:06 am

$0.00

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:03 pm

FA28,

I think it might of been worth it back then...Doc? What do you think?

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:32 pm

Sorry I didn't clarify my inquirey properly but I suddenly discovered I was about to miss our 39 wedding anniversary so I had to leave quickly. Anyway, Flight Safety, Simuflight and others offer sim training on any airplane. Cross their palms with 15,700 pieces of US gold and they will give you a type rating on a 350. Other airplanes are priced similar. No job offers, no promises, just flight training. The airlines all have their own sims and are pretty well covered but what about the small guy. Would there be enough young pilots who would be willing to pay big bucks for a type rating? I was also thinking of a full meal deal Canadian training, CFIT,CRM TDGR, Survival, Right Seat Conversion, the whole deal. CARS 724.115 in it entirety. Quality training for the Canadian industry. The US just sells the airplane training for US consumption. I think it's about time someone did something Canadian. Now all I need is lots of start-up capital.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:40 pm

I thought flight safety taught people at charters/airlines. Instead of inhouse training the companies send their employees to Flight Safety??

If your main target group is students, you won't make very much..

We're/Canada which is a much smaller market..

Your best bet would be to get contract work for Canadian Charters and the occaisional student..

Now all I need is lots of start-up capital.

Yeah.. That's a problem with most great business ventures..

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:34 pm

YYZ. You really think that the two are the same?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 2:20 pm

A lot of guys who paid through the nose for the privilige of sleeping in Carl's hangar are indeed senior Captains with Air Canada. So is each and every grad from the first couple of Seneca courses. We are indeed comparing apples to oranges here folks. I cant think of a single operator who would hire a guy who bought a PPC. Wht good would a guy be to them with a PPC and five bloody hours on type??? Not much! And if you are going to BUY a PPC, bear in mind that operations like FS only train to profincy (sp), not for a PPC. For $20K USD, you can probably get a 767/757 type in the states.....then overseas you go.
I'd like to think the "sweat shops" like Carl used to run are a thing of the past...but ya never know....pilots are sluts! And we all know it.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 5:39 pm

Doc wrote:I cant think of a single operator who would hire a guy who bought a PPC

I assure you it is quite common not only to hire them but to insist on it. Borek most notably springs to mind. And we have some right here at home.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=336
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=220

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:51 pm

Just Another Pilot,

no, but similar, as Doc brought up Carl's Hangar and Seneca.. You can get a license for free or you can pay for it..

But I don't agree with paying for your own PPC.

Sure it be great if it was free everywhere and you didn't need to worry about it.

But if you need to put up a bond, or a ppc before you get hired, so be it.
That's life..

**** Rofl.. So much for a free license..

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=790

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:38 pm

What made me think of this was when my prevoius, now defunct employer needed a pilot to do line indoc on a G1, Flight Safety, put him in touch with an American pilot who had lots of Gulfstream experience. This pilot, in his '40s and a couple of thousand hours, bought a 737 type rating in the hopes of having a leg up on his peers with an airline in Dallas. That was a common occurance among corperate operators in the US in the 90's It seems that if you go to any training provider, all they teach you is how to fly the airplane. Maybe what this country needs is a Canadian training provider that will give more value for the buck by providing all the training. Then maybe a pilot can get into an airplane and earn a decent wage because he/she is fully prepared. Then, maybe if this well trained pilot recieves a minimum wage offer from BUMF#C*$ Flying Service, the pro can send the CP his own PFO letter. Bring the working conditions up to standard or you will always be stuck with bottom feeders. Just remember, you can contract out maintenance, you can contract out dispatch, you can contract out fuel but without pilots, that airplane isn't going anywhere. At least this happened in a dream lst night.

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:43 pm

I need a pilot license to work as a pilot in Canada. A Doctor or Lawyer need a degree to practice. Can I be hired with a commercial license? Yes. Am I hireable? Maybe, that depends on the operator. Check on type/PPC my reponsibility? How is a person to know what aircraft they may end up piloting? Besides, isn't there a grouping on the back of my license to tell me?
So then, if an operator wishes to abdicate their responsibility for meeting currency requirements for a specific aircraft they create revenue from, it becomes ours?
I for one, will not accept that responsibility. And for the pilots who feel that it is appropriate to diminish the industry by prosituting themselves, and then rationalizing it by statements like "do what it takes" or "if it gets you the job", you're the real problem. That is because you believe it is okey to de-value yourself by abdicating dignity, values and honour. Flying is not a calling, its a f***ing job.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:39 pm

just another pilot wrote:I need a pilot license to work as a pilot in Canada. A Doctor or Lawyer need a degree to practice......And for the pilots who feel that it is appropriate to diminish the industry by prosituting themselves, and then rationalizing it by statements like "do what it takes" or "if it gets you the job", your the real problem.

That's not my fault.. That's called bureaucracy.. I don't know when they forced the town doctor/medicine man to get a degree before he could practice or when the instituted lawyers to get a license before they could defend the rights of an individual.

It's not my fault that you need 200 hours to have a CPL or need a PPC on type, that's just government for you.

You need accredition to teach.

Just because people have a piece of paper doesn't mean they can do something.

Look at most aviation accidents. Caused by pilots with 10k+ hours.. Using employer hiring standards they're actually worse off by hiring some person who's flown for so long, because it's they who crash not the young people.. (whoring all those hours so a person can crash)

Then, maybe if this well trained pilot recieves a minimum wage offer from BUMF#C*$ Flying Service, the pro can send the CP his own PFO letter. Bring the working conditions up to standard or you will always be stuck with bottom feeders. Just remember, you can contract out maintenance, you can contract out dispatch, you can contract out fuel but without pilots, that airplane isn't going anywhere.

As Oldtimer touched on (sorta?), those with PPCs will hopefully demand more money, if they demand more money at one point the CPs will hire a new face and train him because it will be cheaper then to pay the PPC's ransom.

All a PPC is, just another piece of paper.. Just like a PhD the doc will add to his name..

Life is prostitution by the way.. If you can't see that. which you should..

Flying is not a calling, its a f***ing job.

You'll realise you just need to keep paying and paying for the things you want.

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:53 pm

CYYZ. I'm not sure what you're getting at. Splicing quotes together for a spin? In regards to qualifications, I was drawing a line between what I believe is my responsibility, and that of the operators.
Life is prostitution? What does that mean? I was addressing the specific action of buying/paying for a PPC. aka selling out values. That little voice that says "this doesn't feel right". But hey, that is just how I was raised. Sometimes a rose is just a rose. Sel' avie.

milton · Post by **milton** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:05 am

cyyz...

do you think that by obtaining a PPC a company would pay u more monthly? you must be very new to this industry to think that...pay is established as per experience (ie: hours) and type flown..it may land you the job with a skimpy company, but won't get you a higher salary than joe blow w/o a PPC upon hire...

I can't understand how quickly people forget that part of the PPC is company operating procedures...aka, it is ON THE JOB training...PPC's are not O-PEE-CHEE trading cards...

cyyz, are we prostitutes or professionals?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:50 am

cyyz :

You have some interesting ideas.

Quote :

" whoring all those hours so a person can crash. "

Now I'll admit I'm probably a whore in your mind, however may I at least categorize the profession of aircraft whore.

I charge 250.00 Euros per hour for my flight instruction time ( Approx. $375.00 Canadian. )

So there are common street whores that fu.k for peanuts and then there are us high paid call girls.

As to the 10k hours so I can crash, I must be doing something wrong because I'm coming up on my third 10K and haven't crashed one yet.

Cat

milton · Post by **milton** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:16 am

cyyz, read this

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/te ... ain/80964/

Blastor · Post by **Blastor** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:19 am

Paying for a Job? PPC? Nuts!

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:14 am

Cat Driver wrote:cyyz :

You have some interesting ideas.

Quote :

" whoring all those hours so a person can crash. "

Now I'll admit I'm probably a whore in your mind, however may I at least categorize the profession of aircraft whore.

I charge 250.00 Euros per hour for my flight instruction time ( Approx. $375.00 Canadian. )

So there are common street whores that fu.k for peanuts and then there are us high paid call girls.

As to the 10k hours so I can crash, I must be doing something wrong because I'm coming up on my third 10K and haven't crashed one yet.

Cat

You're just a special case. You're the Geisha of our industry CD.

cyyz, are we prostitutes or professionals?

What does everyone say about lawyers? Blood(money) sucking whores..

I was addressing the specific action of buying/paying for a PPC. aka selling out values. But hey, that is just how I was raised

I know.... When the world was a simpler place that might have been the case. But today, many would sell their mothers for a PPC. In any industry people will go to extreme lengths to achieve their goals.

Milton, nice read, thanks...

snapped · Post by **snapped** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:22 am

I see that the ppc. pot is being stired once again.

I'm against the buying a ppc. thing. But face it there are many pilots out that would screw a company by getting ppc and leaving them high and dry. Thus a trianing bond might be required.

milton · Post by **milton** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:41 am

after a company trains their pilots, the employer needs to make it attractive for the pilots to stick around...even Tim Hortons manages to keep employees after their OJT training.